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Subject: Re: Wrong in this position!

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 11:09:33 11/22/00

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On November 22, 2000 at 11:55:03, Oliver Roese wrote:

>On November 22, 2000 at 10:17:21, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 22, 2000 at 00:41:00, Oliver Roese wrote:
>>
>>>On November 21, 2000 at 14:56:47, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 21, 2000 at 14:45:13, Oliver Roese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 21, 2000 at 03:25:00, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]8/8/2Kp4/3P1B2/2P2k2/5p2/8/8 w - - bm Bc8; id "WAC.146";
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Searched Move: b6+
>>>>>>Right = 1/2 Stime = 10.9 Total NPS = 429381 <time_sq> = 120 <depth> = 20
>>>>>>
>>>>>>White to Move  Book Move(s): Bc8
>>>>>>  Test Position:  "WAC.146"
>>>>>>  1.   2.46     0    78031   1. Bh3
>>>>>>  1.   2.52     0    78036   1. Be6
>>>>>>  1.   2.54     0    78037   1. Bd7
>>>>>>  1.   2.54     0    78051   1. Bd7
>>>>>>  2.   2.53     0    78062   1. Bd7 Ke5
>>>>>>  2.   ++       0    78134   1. Bh7
>>>>>>  2.   1.82     0    78343   1. Bd7 f2
>>>>>>  2.   2.51     0    78365   1. Be6 Ke5
>>>>>>  2.   2.52     0    78424   1. Bd3 Ke3
>>>>>>  2.   2.52     0    78496   1. Bd3 Ke3
>>>>>>  3.   2.55     0    78525   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. Bf5
>>>>>>  3.   ++       0    78826   1. Bh7
>>>>>>  3.   2.55     0    79404   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. Bf5
>>>>>>  3.   2.55     0    80628   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. Bf5
>>>>>>  4.   2.64     0    80953   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. c5 dxc5
>>>>>>  4.   2.64     0    83123   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. c5 dxc5
>>>>>>  5.   2.54     0    84780   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. Bf5 Kf4 3. Bd7
>>>>>>  5.   ++       0    91118   1. Bc8
>>>>>>  5.   --
>>>>>>  5.   2.54     0    94138   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. Bf5 Kf4 3. Bd7
>>>>>>  5.   5.87     0    99653   1. Bc8 f2 2. Bh3 Kg3 3. Bf1
>>>>>>  5.   5.87     0   116910   1. Bc8 f2 2. Bh3 Kg3 3. Bf1
>>>>>>  6.   --
>>>>>>  6.   ++       0   117724   1. Bc8
>>>>>>  6.   5.87     0   118439   1. Bc8 f2 2. Bh3 Kg3 3. Bf1 Kf4
>>>>>>  6.   5.87     0   161237   1. Bc8 f2 2. Bh3 Kg3 3. Bf1 Kf4
>>>>>>  7.   5.87     0   165796   1. Bc8 f2 2. Bh3 Ke3 3. Bf1 Kd4
>>>>>>  7.   ++       0   186436   1. Bh3
>>>>>>  7.   --
>>>>>>  7.   5.87     0   191756   1. Bc8 f2 2. Bh3 Kg3 3. Bf1 Kf4 4. Kxd6
>>>>>>  7.   6.64     0   212491   1. Bh3 Kg3 2. Bf1 Kf2 3. Kxd6 Ke1 4. Bh3
>>>>>>  7.   6.64     0   212520   1. Bh3 Kg3 2. Bf1 Kf2 3. Kxd6 Ke1 4. Bh3
>>>>>>  8.   --
>>>>>>  8.   ++       0   221385   1. Bh3
>>>>>>  8.   6.45     0   223648   1. Bh3 Kg3 2. Bf1 Kf2 3. Kxd6 Ke1 4. Bh3 f2
>>>>>>  8.   6.45     0   223732   1. Bh3 Kg3 2. Bf1 Kf2 3. Kxd6 Ke1 4. Bh3 f2
>>>>>>  9.   6.45     0   232656   1. Bh3 Kg3 2. Bf1 Kf2 3. Kxd6 Ke1 4. Bh3 f2 5. c5
>>>>>>  9.   ++       0   264037   1. Bd3
>>>>>>  9.   8.88     0   295723   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. c5 dxc5 3. d6 Kd2 4. d7 c4 5. d8=Q
>>>>>>  9.   8.88     0   304900   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. c5 dxc5 3. d6 Kd2 4. d7 c4 5. d8=Q
>>>>>> 10.   ++       0   314109   1. Bd3
>>>>>> 10.  14.23     1   495219   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. c5 Kd4 3. cxd6 Kc3 4. d7 Kd2 5. d8=Q
>>>>>>Ke3
>>>>>> 10.  14.23     1   525349   1. Bd3 Ke3 2. c5 Kd4 3. cxd6 Kc3 4. d7 Kd2 5. d8=Q
>>>>>>Ke3
>>>>>> 11.   ++       1   529553   1. Bd3
>>>>>> 11.  16.49     6  1363057   1. Bd3 Kg3 2. c5 Kf4 3. cxd6 Ke5 4. d7 Kf4 5. d8=Q
>>>>>>Ke3
>>>>>> 11.  16.49     6  1393518   1. Bd3 Kg3 2. c5 Kf4 3. cxd6 Ke5 4. d7 Kf4 5. d8=Q
>>>>>>Ke3
>>>>>> 12.   ++       6  1402113   1. Bd3
>>>>>> 12.  MATE+    33  9555958   1. Bd3 f2 2. c5 Ke3 3. cxd6 Kxd3
>>>>>> 12.  MATE+    33  9738198   1. Bd3 f2 2. c5 Ke3 3. cxd6 Kxd3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>node_count = 9738198 quiescent nodes = 10482 eval_count = 4534996
>>>>>>hash hits = 2251420 hash moves = 342378 pawn hash hits = 4522278
>>>>>>node_rate = 290779 null cuts = 935545 exten = 747422 int_iter = 120
>>>>>>egtb_probes = 267932 egtb_hits = 267932 fail_high(%) = 93
>>>>>
>>>>>After 1.Bd3 black can force a repetition of the position with
>>>>>1...Ke3 2.Bf1 Kf2 3.Bh3 Kg3 4.Bf5 Kf4 (all forced) and white should soon come up
>>>>>with a better idea...
>>>>>
>>>>>Oliver
>>>>
>>>>When I play the above move, I get a mate score from crafty.  ie:
>>>>
>>>>after Bd3, ...
>>>>         (4)   17->  51.30 -Mat40   1. ... Ke3 2. Bf1 Kf2 3. c5 Kxf1 4.
>>>>                                    cxd6 <HT>
>>>>
>>>>(which comes from tablebases of course...)
>>>>
>>>>Kf2 then leads to a mate in 39...
>>>>
>>>>3. Bh3 is not the move for white however... that leads to a repetition.  white
>>>>plays c5 to stay on the track to mating...  Bh3 will also mate, but only after
>>>>going through the 2-fold repetition first, and wasting time...
>>>
>>>I apologize if i was wrong here, but i just cant get it.
>>>I saw 3.c5, but after 3...Kxf1 4.cxd6 f2 5.d7 K(e2) 6.d8=Q f1=Q a queen-ending
>>>with a pawn up for white follows. Could you (or Bruce Morland) give some further
>>>moves of the best line? Is it  a forced queen swap or what??
>>>If white simply waits for ...f2 with 1.Bc8 black will never get a queen.
>>>It is really hard to believe...
>>>
>>>Oliver
>>
>>
>>after the 3. ... Kxf1 cxd6 is a mate in 38..
>>
>>Here is the complete variation after 4 moves:
>>5. d7! f2! 6. d8=Q! f1=Q! 7. Qb6! Qh1! 8. Qd4! Qf3 9. Qc5! Kd1 10.
>>Kb6! Qf6+! 11. d6! Qd8+! 12. Qc7! Qf6! 13. Qc6! Qb2+! 14. Qb5! Qd4+!
>>15. Qc5 Qf6! 16. Kc7! Qf4! 17. Qd5+! Ke1! 18. Kc8 Qc1+ 19. Kd8! Qe3
>>20. d7! Kf1! 21. Qc4+! Kg1 22. Kc8! Qh3! 23. Kc7! Qh2+ 24. Kb7 Qg2+!
>>25. Qc6! Qg7! 26. Qc7 Qg2+! 27. Kb8! Qb2+! 28. Kc8! Qg2 29. Qa7+
>>Kf1! 30. Qa1+! Ke2 31. Qb2+ Kf1 32. Qxg2+! Kxg2! 33. d8=Q! Kf2 34.
>>Qd3 Ke1 35. Qc2 Kf1 36. Kd7 Ke1 37. Ke6 Kf1 38. Kf5 Ke1 39. Kg4 Kf1
>>40. Kf3! Ke1 41. Qe2#
>>
>>moves marked with a ! are the only optimal move in that position.  Any other
>>move extends the mate or draws/loses...
>
>Thanks,
>but nothing abnormal to be find here.
>I still believe 1.Bc8 is better and will in the end give a shorter path to the
>mate.
>Uri Blass posted some while ago a position, where a computer, already a queen
>ahead, happily sacrificed it to get a won pawn ending.
>Something simliar might had happen here. Unfortunately i do not have enough
>tablebases installed to check this out.
>
>Oliver


I really can't answer that question.  All I can say is that if Crafty says
"mate in N" then it can be interpreted as "mate in at _most_ N moves and maybe
less."  To verify a mate in N, requires a search to depth 2N-1, which is not
going to happen here.  All I can really say is that either variation leads to a
forced mate, not a potential draw...



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