Author: Stefan Meyer-Kahlen
Date: 15:48:30 12/03/00
Go up one level in this thread
On December 03, 2000 at 18:20:32, Christophe Theron wrote: >On December 03, 2000 at 12:44:45, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote: > >>On December 03, 2000 at 11:52:17, Christophe Theron wrote: >> >>>On December 03, 2000 at 09:02:08, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote: >>> >>>(snip) >>>>Another issue in this story is the opening thing at London. This was NOT the >>>>main issue in this case at the court and we are NOT suing Marcus to have used >>>>insider knowledge against me. To be honest I also do not care anymore if he did >>>>or not because it’s history now and won’t happen again. But as this is also >>>>brought up here again and again I will give you my view about this also. >>>> >>>>Ed, Christophe and Jeroen: I am ready to believe you that Jeroen was the one who >>>>did the opening choice in London if you all say so, but there is one problem: In >>>>his magazine Marcus Kaestner describes in details how HE prepared Tiger against >>>>various opponents, for example on page 17 against Nimzo. He also claimed that he >>>>has recommended a line against Shredder in the Belgrade Gambit to Ed and showed >>>>him a 20 moves long line that he expected Shredder to play 5 minutes BEFORE the >>>>game (page 13), well, it WAS the line that Shredder finally played… So there is >>>>something wrong here. Either Marcus Kaestner HAD influence on the opening choice >>>>or he is NOT telling the truth in his magazine. Please remember: This is not a >>>>story I dreamed last night, it is WRITTEN in his magazine, you can read it there >>>>if you can read German. >>> >>> >>> >>>Stefan, why did you not ask first, before taking the risk of spreading false >>>informations, and even false accusations? >> >> >>Christophe, it was not me who started spreading this information. Please read >>Marcus' magazine. I got all my information from there. > > > >I don't have the magazine, and I don't read german accurately enough. That's >unfortunate, but if I ask somebody to send me the magazine and then find someone >else to translate the article for me, it's going to take 2 weeks or more. This might be a good idea. >Remember I live in the Caribbean. Don't worry, I will not forget this. We are having winter here in Germany and everytime it's raining I am thinking of somebody doing the same as I do but having a superb view on the sea and spending his spare time at the beaches :-) >Can you please point out the false information that you have read in ChessBits >about the Shredder-Tiger game? > >It would be nice if you could find the time to do that. I guess you better read it and find out by yourself what's right and wrong and wrong in there. >Whatever you say now, I still feel like my team and I have been involved in an >argument in a legal case, without my knowledge, and I don't feel particulary >happy about it. > > > > >>>Because, as I understand, you are yourself convinced that we (the Tiger team) >>>have cheated against you (the Shredder team)? >>> >>>Do you feel that we have cheated? I would like to know your opinion. >> >> >>I don't think that you, Jeron or Ed have cheated. After what I have read in >>Marcus' magazine I believe that Marcus had great influence of the opening choice >>of Rebel and Tiger. >> >>I do not accuse you of being cheaters. > > > >You BELIEVE? Once again, what in the article lets you believe that Marcus had a >great influence??? Please read it. >I think we must absolutely talk about this. I don't want to stay in bad terms >with you because of this, so I think it is important that the issue is >discussed. Further, a public place like CCC is fine with me, as once again I >have nothing to hide. I for my side am not in bad terms with you, Ed and Jeroen. >>>I am ready to discuss this issue here. We could do that by private email, but I >>>feel like I have nothing to hide, and if you have no problem with this, we could >>>discuss it here. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Again, I DO NOT CARE which one is true. >>> >>> >>> >>>I think it is your interest to know which one is true. Maybe even both are true. >>> >>>It is not wise to say that you do not care. You are using this argument in a >>>lawsuit, and you don't care? >> >> >>I don't care because London is over for a couple of months now. >>I don't care because I scored 1.5/2 with black against Tiger and Rebel. >>I don't care because I am happy with the result of London. > > > >Naturally. I would feel the same. > > > >>I do care if Marcus calls me a liar by using the information he wrote in his >>magazin. > > > >This is another issue which will be decided by a legal court. > >Here, I'm only interested by the fact that my team and I have been involved in a >legal argument, only this. > > > > >>>I think the best thing to do is to talk about it directly. I give my version of >>>the story, Marcus gives his version, you give yours, and let's see what doesn't >>>fit. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Now Marcus Kaestner accuses us in public to have cheated the judges on purpose >>>>which we asked him to stop doing. >>>> >>>>Marcus Kaestner is playing the role of “poor little innocent Marcus against the >>>>evil empire that is trying to destroy” him quite successful. >>> >>> >>> >>>But you are giving him the opportunity to do so with your lawsuit. >>> >>>You have won the WMCCC. You have a very good reputation. Why are you spoiling it >>>by attacking a little independant tester? Even if Marcus has done something >>>wrong (I don't even know), why do you ever care? I don't even understand where >>>the damage is. Shredder is high in his rating list. >>> >>>Before your company attacked him in a legal case, he had never told anything >>>negative about Shredder. >> >> >>Just imagine the following: >> >>Before Tiger came out a couple of weeks ago and after winning the French and >>Dutch championship you had excellent reactions here and people were eager to get >>it as soon as possible. >> >>What if I had written without having a copy of Tiger: "Yes, Tiger is a nice >>program but it gets nuked by my latest Shredder5." So you tell me: "Hey, stop >>this you don't even have Tiger!" My response would be: "It's funny how people >>thing they what I have and what I don't have." >> >>Another one will ask me here: "What is your assumption based on?" and I would >>answer. "I have certainly played many games at tournament time controls with >>Tiger so I know". >> >>So seriously: HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THAT??? > > > >I would not like that, but I would do nothing. There are independant testers out >there who would correct the false informations very quickly. That happened way before Shredder5 was realeased. >Actually it has already happened here that people criticize me or my program. It >sometimes ended in a thread or a post deleted, so the content of the message, >you can guess, was not very nice. > >When you have won the WMCCC, there is nothing that can be done against you. You >put "winner of the WMCCC 2000" on your box and your program sells well. > >No matter what X or Y says against you. > >And in the case of Marcus, your program was, and is still, very HIGH in his >list. > >So I still fail to understand the damage done to Marcus to your company. But I >see very well the damage you are causing to yourself by bringing a lawsuit >against him. > >I you can't live with somebody spreading false information about you on a small >scale, then I guess CCC must be a nightmare for you. Because there will always >be somebody to lie about you without any reason here, or somewhere else. Believe me in the last years I really learned to deal with false information about my program and myself. I had to learn because otherwise I couldn't have continued doing what I am doing now. Still I am having a threshold. CCC is fine with me. It's by far the best public place to discuss computer chess. >Maybe Marcus lied about you, I repeat that I do not know. If it is the case, >then you will win your lawsuit. But how futile this whole thing is! And does it >justify using arguments possibly WRONGLY damaging the image of somebody else? Is it justified to damage my or Shredder's image? >>I think that Tiger and Gambit Tiger are VERY strong, and if people will test >>Shredder5 against Tiger and Shredder gets killed I won't certainly be very >>happy. Also the new Fritz is likely to be a killer again and if he is better >>than Shredder in "real" tests than I have to improve again. >> >>But if people say that Fritz or Tiger are better than Shredder without even >>knowing Shredder than this is a major problem for me. > > > >Easy: provide a beta version of your program to independent testers and let them >correct the false informations. > >There are several very good independant testers here, you would have plenty of >opportunities to let the truth be known. Yes, this will happen soon. Everything is out now. This wasn't possible when this all started. >And once again, Marcus never said your program was weak. He actually said it was >the best program out there, or at least close to the best. There is NO damage to >you about the real playing strength of your program, which is the most important >thing for a chess software company. > >What are you fighting about? The fact that he says he has version X.YZ when you >say that he did not have it? > >If you say that my car is blue, it's a lie. But I'm not going to sue you for >this. Because there is no damage for me. So I just don't care and go back to my >work. Suppose it's red, you want to sell it and everybody is looking for red cars. Hmm, probalby still a bad comparison... Thanks for your comments on the subject anyway. Stefan
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