Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 20:39:13 12/03/00
Go up one level in this thread
On December 03, 2000 at 18:48:30, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote:
>On December 03, 2000 at 18:20:32, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On December 03, 2000 at 12:44:45, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote:
>>
>>>On December 03, 2000 at 11:52:17, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 03, 2000 at 09:02:08, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>(snip)
>>>>>Another issue in this story is the opening thing at London. This was NOT the
>>>>>main issue in this case at the court and we are NOT suing Marcus to have used
>>>>>insider knowledge against me. To be honest I also do not care anymore if he did
>>>>>or not because it’s history now and won’t happen again. But as this is also
>>>>>brought up here again and again I will give you my view about this also.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ed, Christophe and Jeroen: I am ready to believe you that Jeroen was the one who
>>>>>did the opening choice in London if you all say so, but there is one problem: In
>>>>>his magazine Marcus Kaestner describes in details how HE prepared Tiger against
>>>>>various opponents, for example on page 17 against Nimzo. He also claimed that he
>>>>>has recommended a line against Shredder in the Belgrade Gambit to Ed and showed
>>>>>him a 20 moves long line that he expected Shredder to play 5 minutes BEFORE the
>>>>>game (page 13), well, it WAS the line that Shredder finally played… So there is
>>>>>something wrong here. Either Marcus Kaestner HAD influence on the opening choice
>>>>>or he is NOT telling the truth in his magazine. Please remember: This is not a
>>>>>story I dreamed last night, it is WRITTEN in his magazine, you can read it there
>>>>>if you can read German.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Stefan, why did you not ask first, before taking the risk of spreading false
>>>>informations, and even false accusations?
>>>
>>>
>>>Christophe, it was not me who started spreading this information. Please read
>>>Marcus' magazine. I got all my information from there.
>>
>>
>>
>>I don't have the magazine, and I don't read german accurately enough. That's
>>unfortunate, but if I ask somebody to send me the magazine and then find someone
>>else to translate the article for me, it's going to take 2 weeks or more.
>
>
>This might be a good idea.
>
>
>>Remember I live in the Caribbean.
>
>
>Don't worry, I will not forget this.
>We are having winter here in Germany and everytime it's raining I am thinking of
>somebody doing the same as I do but having a superb view on the sea and spending
>his spare time at the beaches :-)
Unfortunately I don't spend my spare time at the beaches. I don't have spare
time because I think all the time to the guys programming chess in the cold
countries. And I think: "Mmh... In their countries it is cold. So they can't go
outside, so they are certainly working on their chess programs at this time". So
I stay at home and work on mine.
I'm probably the whitest (oops does this word exist?) guy of Guadeloupe because
of this. My skin hardly sees the sun.
Actually I have heard that some guys from the cold countries are wasting some
time in the courts. That's why I have decided that I could take a temporary
rest, and to go at the beach this afternoon. I was at the "Pointe des Chateaux".
Here are some pictures of this place (check out the first one at least):
http://www.multivolley.com/stars/dekergret/perso/guadeloupea.html
http://tropikalkayak.free.fr/ptchateaux.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/harry.mongongnon/vue_de_la_pointe_des_chateaux.html
http://www.guadtour.com/quevoir/ptchato.html
It's a great place.
>>Can you please point out the false information that you have read in ChessBits
>>about the Shredder-Tiger game?
>>
>>It would be nice if you could find the time to do that.
>
>
>I guess you better read it and find out by yourself what's right and wrong and
>wrong in there.
So I guess I have to ask Marcus for a translation. That's too bad, because I was
interested in your own interpretation of the words too.
>>Whatever you say now, I still feel like my team and I have been involved in an
>>argument in a legal case, without my knowledge, and I don't feel particulary
>>happy about it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Because, as I understand, you are yourself convinced that we (the Tiger team)
>>>>have cheated against you (the Shredder team)?
>>>>
>>>>Do you feel that we have cheated? I would like to know your opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't think that you, Jeron or Ed have cheated. After what I have read in
>>>Marcus' magazine I believe that Marcus had great influence of the opening choice
>>>of Rebel and Tiger.
>>>
>>>I do not accuse you of being cheaters.
>>
>>
>>
>>You BELIEVE? Once again, what in the article lets you believe that Marcus had a
>>great influence???
>
>
>Please read it.
>
>
>>I think we must absolutely talk about this. I don't want to stay in bad terms
>>with you because of this, so I think it is important that the issue is
>>discussed. Further, a public place like CCC is fine with me, as once again I
>>have nothing to hide.
>
>
>I for my side am not in bad terms with you, Ed and Jeroen.
I would really like to know if you have really used the argument that "Marcus
used insider knowledge of Shredder to help the Rebel-Tiger team" in the court.
Can you answer?
>>>>I am ready to discuss this issue here. We could do that by private email, but I
>>>>feel like I have nothing to hide, and if you have no problem with this, we could
>>>>discuss it here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Again, I DO NOT CARE which one is true.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think it is your interest to know which one is true. Maybe even both are true.
>>>>
>>>>It is not wise to say that you do not care. You are using this argument in a
>>>>lawsuit, and you don't care?
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't care because London is over for a couple of months now.
>>>I don't care because I scored 1.5/2 with black against Tiger and Rebel.
>>>I don't care because I am happy with the result of London.
>>
>>
>>
>>Naturally. I would feel the same.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I do care if Marcus calls me a liar by using the information he wrote in his
>>>magazin.
>>
>>
>>
>>This is another issue which will be decided by a legal court.
>>
>>Here, I'm only interested by the fact that my team and I have been involved in a
>>legal argument, only this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>I think the best thing to do is to talk about it directly. I give my version of
>>>>the story, Marcus gives his version, you give yours, and let's see what doesn't
>>>>fit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Now Marcus Kaestner accuses us in public to have cheated the judges on purpose
>>>>>which we asked him to stop doing.
>>>>>
>>>>>Marcus Kaestner is playing the role of “poor little innocent Marcus against the
>>>>>evil empire that is trying to destroy” him quite successful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>But you are giving him the opportunity to do so with your lawsuit.
>>>>
>>>>You have won the WMCCC. You have a very good reputation. Why are you spoiling it
>>>>by attacking a little independant tester? Even if Marcus has done something
>>>>wrong (I don't even know), why do you ever care? I don't even understand where
>>>>the damage is. Shredder is high in his rating list.
>>>>
>>>>Before your company attacked him in a legal case, he had never told anything
>>>>negative about Shredder.
>>>
>>>
>>>Just imagine the following:
>>>
>>>Before Tiger came out a couple of weeks ago and after winning the French and
>>>Dutch championship you had excellent reactions here and people were eager to get
>>>it as soon as possible.
>>>
>>>What if I had written without having a copy of Tiger: "Yes, Tiger is a nice
>>>program but it gets nuked by my latest Shredder5." So you tell me: "Hey, stop
>>>this you don't even have Tiger!" My response would be: "It's funny how people
>>>thing they what I have and what I don't have."
>>>
>>>Another one will ask me here: "What is your assumption based on?" and I would
>>>answer. "I have certainly played many games at tournament time controls with
>>>Tiger so I know".
>>>
>>>So seriously: HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THAT???
>>
>>
>>
>>I would not like that, but I would do nothing. There are independant testers out
>>there who would correct the false informations very quickly.
>
>
>That happened way before Shredder5 was realeased.
If a beta version of yours is said to be killed by another program and you
really care about what people think about this beta version, then why don't you
send the beta in question to independant testers?
If you really care about the results of a beta version, you don't have to wait
for the product to be released.
>>Actually it has already happened here that people criticize me or my program. It
>>sometimes ended in a thread or a post deleted, so the content of the message,
>>you can guess, was not very nice.
>>
>>When you have won the WMCCC, there is nothing that can be done against you. You
>>put "winner of the WMCCC 2000" on your box and your program sells well.
>>
>>No matter what X or Y says against you.
>>
>>And in the case of Marcus, your program was, and is still, very HIGH in his
>>list.
>>
>>So I still fail to understand the damage done to Marcus to your company. But I
>>see very well the damage you are causing to yourself by bringing a lawsuit
>>against him.
>>
>>I you can't live with somebody spreading false information about you on a small
>>scale, then I guess CCC must be a nightmare for you. Because there will always
>>be somebody to lie about you without any reason here, or somewhere else.
>
>
>Believe me in the last years I really learned to deal with false information
>about my program and myself. I had to learn because otherwise I couldn't have
>continued doing what I am doing now. Still I am having a threshold.
>
>CCC is fine with me. It's by far the best public place to discuss computer
>chess.
>
>
>>Maybe Marcus lied about you, I repeat that I do not know. If it is the case,
>>then you will win your lawsuit. But how futile this whole thing is! And does it
>>justify using arguments possibly WRONGLY damaging the image of somebody else?
>
>
>Is it justified to damage my or Shredder's image?
So because you feel that your image has been damaged, you think that it is fair
to damage the image of somebody else, who has nothing to do with the original
dispute?
Don't do to others what you don't want others to do to you.
>>>I think that Tiger and Gambit Tiger are VERY strong, and if people will test
>>>Shredder5 against Tiger and Shredder gets killed I won't certainly be very
>>>happy. Also the new Fritz is likely to be a killer again and if he is better
>>>than Shredder in "real" tests than I have to improve again.
>>>
>>>But if people say that Fritz or Tiger are better than Shredder without even
>>>knowing Shredder than this is a major problem for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>Easy: provide a beta version of your program to independent testers and let them
>>correct the false informations.
>>
>>There are several very good independant testers here, you would have plenty of
>>opportunities to let the truth be known.
>
>
>Yes, this will happen soon. Everything is out now.
>This wasn't possible when this all started.
I don't understand why.
>>And once again, Marcus never said your program was weak. He actually said it was
>>the best program out there, or at least close to the best. There is NO damage to
>>you about the real playing strength of your program, which is the most important
>>thing for a chess software company.
>>
>>What are you fighting about? The fact that he says he has version X.YZ when you
>>say that he did not have it?
>>
>>If you say that my car is blue, it's a lie. But I'm not going to sue you for
>>this. Because there is no damage for me. So I just don't care and go back to my
>>work.
>
>
>Suppose it's red, you want to sell it and everybody is looking for red cars.
>Hmm, probalby still a bad comparison...
No, great comparison.
So you want to sell your red car, and there comes a guy who says that you are a
liar and that your car is not red, it is blue!
So you kill the guy. Just one bullet. Between the eyes. 'Cause you're an
efficient guy, world shooting champion. Don't waste bullets.
And then, once the troublemaker is burried, you believe that people will come to
you and buy your red car?
Sounds logical, isn't it?
1) I'm selling a red car and everybody wants one.
2) I've got rid of the guy who was telling everybody my car is blue.
So 1+2 => my business is fine!
>Thanks for your comments on the subject anyway.
You're welcome.
One last thing: my car is red, but some time ago I discovered that it was
originally white. It's a second hand car (a Citroën BX), and apparently it has
been repainted because a red car is more appealing for a potential buyer (in
this case: me).
It's 100% true. If you come to Guadeloupe I'll show you my car.
Now I have a problem with my conscience. Should I have killed the guy who said
it was blue? OK, he was wrong. But my car was not 100% red either...
Christophe
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