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Subject: Re: ECM errata

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 14:05:19 01/18/98

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On January 18, 1998 at 16:41:30, Amir Ban wrote:

>
>I did some work on the ECM suite (please don't call it CCC, the original
>text still deserves credit for it). I looked at the first 100.  These
>are somewhat easier than the rest. In under 20 seconds, I get 81
>correct. I am assuming (without good reason I admit) that since I solved
>them these are correct, and I looked at the other 19. I ran them for
>some more time, about a minute or so, and also visually analyzed them to
>see if I can see what the problem is with them. Here is what I find.
>Feel free to go over my analysis, and point out errors:

what machine?  I am getting 82 on a P6.  Later I think you miss a key
move in parsing the epd (note below) so you actually are getting 82
right
according to the suite keys..



>
>No. 11 (Nxg4):
>
>Junior immediately grabs Bb5 and sticks with it. I analyzed Nxg4 and
>there is certainly some point to it. These are two completely different
>plans, and although Bb5 seems better, I'm not sure.
>
>Recommend: Add Bb5 as a side solution.

Crafty also found Bb5 as best.  It locks on to this
move at .7 seconds and never wavers, eval = +1.5...
>
>
>No. 14 (Nd5):
>
>Junior finds Nb5 immediately. In the deeper analysis, it ultimately
>prefers Nd5 slightly. Both moves have the same tactical idea.
>
>Recommend: No change (but would like to hear other opinions).
>



I get Nb5 at .71 seconds and it sticks.  But it is all positional
thru 9 plies.  I only ran for 20 secs so I don't know if it would
change later.  eval =+.5
>
>No. 17 (Rxd5):
>
>Junior finds Nf6+. After a long think, it prefers Rxd5 slightly.
>
>Recommend: No change, or add Nf6+ as side solution.

Ditto.  finds Nf6 at .1 seconds, eval slowly increases over next
20 seconds from 1.64 at ply=4 to 2.26 at ply=9...

>
>
>No. 19 (Rxf6+):
>
>Rxf6+ simplifies nicely into a won endgame. However Junior never
>considers it and find Nxe6 is really crushing.
>
>Recommend: Change key to Nxe6.

Ditto.  this must be a bug.  However, Nf3 gets an eval of +4, Ne6 goes
to
+5.  I don't like positions with 3 solutions...



>
>
>No. 28 (Rxf4):
>
>A difficult problem, and somewhat vague. I am not close to finding it,
>but by following the sequence Rxf4 Bxf4 Nxf6+ gxf6 Qg4+ Bg5 Bxg5 f5 it
>looks like it does work in the sense that it's better than the
>alternatives, but I cannot see a plus score.
>
>Recommend: No change, or else drop it for reason of vagueness.


I get Bxf4 here, eval=-.9...


>
>
>No. 29 (Rgxg6):
>
>A classical problem which is found easily. The idea is that after the
>knight on g6 is gone, Qe5 wins. However, after a few seconds Junior
>prefers an intermediate Rxa6 Qxa6 Rxg6 which is the same plan but more
>effective.
>
>Recommend: Add Rxa6 as side solution. The problem is that playing Rxa6
>doesn't prove that your program understood this position.
>
>

I get Rxa6 at shallow plies, +.3, but at depth=7, Rgxg6 fails high and
resolves at +3...


>No. 43 (Bxg2+):
>
>Junior takes Qxc2 fast and sticks with it, thinking that white is forced
>to give up the exchange with Rxg4. Looks like this works, and is
>somewhat better than the key.
>
>Recommend: Add Qxc2 as side solution.
>

Crafty gets Bxg2+ and sticks with it, eval=+1.51 at last iteration.
What
is your score for Qxc2??



>
>No. 51 (Rxh2):
>
>Was not solved in 20 seconds, but turned out in the deeper think, but
>with an unconvincing score. I didn't analyze it.
>
>Recommend: No change (but someone else should look at it).
>
>

this one looks interesting.  I get +2, Qc5...


>No. 60 (Bxh2+):
>
>This one looks wrong. Junior has Qh6 which seems winning (Nf3 Nd2!).
>Looks much more convincing than Bxh2+, where I don't see a win.
>
>Recommend: Change solution to Qh6.
>
>

I agree.  I get Bxh2 at very shallow searches, but Qh6 fails high at 2
seconds with score = +2 and this sticks for remainder of the search...
Perhaps Bxh2 is as good later, no idea...



>No. 63 (Ncxd5):
>
>Junior has Nbxd5, and this looks like a simple transpostion.
>
>Recommend: Add Nbxd5 as side solution.
>
>
>No. 68 (Bd3):
>
>I don't understand the key move. Bd3 Qxc3 Rg4 Qxa1 Bxa1 Nxg4 Qxg4 g6
>looks like just a creative way to lose material. I don't see anything
>else here.
>
>Recommend: Drop this problem.

best crafty found was -2...  looks lost rather than having a combination
to win...



>
>
>No. 71 (Qh6):
>
>Qh6 leads to material gain, and Junior finds it quickly, but after a few
>seconds insists on the quiet and subtle Kg2! Black loses a rook at
>least.
>
>Recommend: Change solution to Kg2.


needs studying at deeper depths.  I get Kg2 at shallow plies, but
switch back to Qh6 at 7 and stick with it, eval=+3 thru 10 seconds when
I stopped it.

>
>
>No. 76 (fxg6):
>
>Junior switches to fxe6 and sticks with it. Analyzing both options, the
>key is correct but fxe6 is at least as good.
>
>Recommend: Add fxe6 as side solution.
>
>


I get +1.6 for fxe6, +3 for fxg6...




>No. 78 (Nxc5):
>
>Was not found in 20 seconds, but turns up convincingly later.
>
>Recommend: No change.
>
>
>No. 81 (Qb1+):
>
>Junior takes Bxc6, with idea Bxc6 Qd8 Qb1+. The idea of the key Qb1+ is
>that the white queen is lost on a8 because of mate threats. Junior's
>side solution uses the same idea, showing that the queen is equally lost
>on d8 ! A nice cook.
>
>Recommend: Add Bxc6 as side solution.
>
>

probably right.  I get Bxc6 thru 9, at 10 Bxc6=+1.93, switches to
Qb1+, eval=+2.03...  not much difference at that depth... I get thru
11 in 20 seconds, no change...



>No. 82 (exf6):
>
>Not found in 20 seconds, but turns up later.
>
>Recommend: No change.
>
>
>No. 84 (Bg6):
>
>Junior plays the unspectacular cxb5. The key Bg6 looks sound, but it
>only forces the exchange of heavy pieces and leads to an endgame with
>advantage.
>
>Recommend: No change, or drop it on grounds of vagueness.
>

I get the same move...  cxb5, eval =+1.2



>
>No. 91 (Nc6):
>
>Junior switches between Nc6 and Nxe6. It finally adopts Nc6, but Nxe6
>may not be far behind.
>
>Recommend: No change.
>
>
>No. 96 (Qe8+):
>
>This one's correct and is mate in 5, but so is Nf6+ with a different
>move order.
>
>Recommend: Add Nf6+ as side solution.
>

my set has both Nf6 *and* Qe8 as solutions.  I got this from
ftp.onenet.net...  Maybe you didn't pick up the second key move
option from the epd suite...



>
>Amir



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