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Subject: Re: The diagrams are to demonstrate it to thorsten

Author: Terry Ripple

Date: 13:53:40 12/05/00

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On December 05, 2000 at 08:16:22, Uri Blass wrote:

>On December 05, 2000 at 08:00:16, Laurence Chen wrote:
>
>>On December 05, 2000 at 04:29:46, Terry Ripple wrote:
>>
>>>On December 05, 2000 at 00:40:00, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 04, 2000 at 22:10:36, Laurence Chen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On December 04, 2000 at 17:48:10, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>These positions are from games of shredder5 that Chris Taylor posted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]2rqrb2/3n1ppk/b2p3p/1ppPpN2/p3P1P1/P1P2QR1/1PB2PP1/R1B3K1 b - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In this position Shredder5 played f6 and evaluated the position as 0.00
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is not the only case of 0.00 evaluations of lost positions of shredder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]2r2bk1/B6p/1p4p1/3Pp1q1/Q1n1P3/8/P3N1PP/R5K1 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here Shredder5 also played Qd7 and evaluated the position as 0.00
>>>>>>23.Qd7 0.00/11 Bc5+ 24.Kh1 0.00/12
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]2rrn1k1/pp1b1pp1/1n1q4/3p1PPN/3P3R/1PNB4/P1Q2K2/6R1 b - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here shredder5 evaluated the position as 0.06 pawn against itself and played
>>>>>>27...Qc6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The point of this post is not to attack Shredder that did very good result and
>>>>>>won the matches against the tigers but only to show that all programs and not
>>>>>>only Fritz have positions in the middle game that they are wrong when they
>>>>>>evaluate the positions as a draw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>Uri just because a chess engine gives an evaluation of 0.00 does not necessary
>>>>>mean that it is a drawn position.
>>>>
>>>>I know.
>>>>The point is that Thorsten attacked Fritz because Fritz showed 0.00 in middle
>>>>game positions that were certainly not a draw.
>>>>My examples were to demonstrate thorsten that this behaviour is also of programs
>>>>like Shredder5 and not only of Fritz and there is no justification to call fritz
>>>>stupid only because of the fact that there are positions that it does not
>>>>understand like every program.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>--------------
>>>An analysis of 0.00 in the middle game just means that both sides have equal
>>>chances to win from that position at that very moment!
>>>
>>>Terry
>>I agree with you Terry.
>
>Did you look at the positions?
>Do you think that the sides have equal chances?
-----------------------------------------

A program can make mistakes about an evaluation just as many strong human
players make evaluation mistakes about a position and many Grandmasters don't
agree about what is the better move at critical points of a game!

The game of chess is too complex for anyone, including programs to make every
evaluation correct at any given point.

Regards,Terry
------------------------------

>
>The point of Thorsten Czub in his posts some weeks ago was that Fritz's problem
>was always that it evaluated 0.00 when it is easy to see that both sides do not
>have equal chances and I remember that he talked about a possible future
>situation when future fritz shows 0.00 whenfuture shresser understands what is
>going on.
>
>I think that wrong 0.00 happens to every program.
>
>Uri



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