Author: James T. Walker
Date: 06:59:54 12/23/00
Go up one level in this thread
On December 22, 2000 at 23:55:46, Uri Blass wrote:
>On December 22, 2000 at 20:06:11, James T. Walker wrote:
>
>>I recently made the statement that Shredder was not a "Blitzer". I'm issuing a
>>recall of that statement. I just finished a 20 game match of Gambit Shredder vs
>>Chess Tiger 13 (G/5minutes). Gambit Shredder won +8 -6 =6 (11-9). That does
>>not necessarily mean Gambit Shredder is better than Chess Tiger but it does
>>indicate it can play with the Tiger. Below is game 17 of the match in which
>>Gambit Shredder announced "Mate in 67". Of course it's a tablebase win in a
>>very difficult KBBKN endgame.
>
>The question is if it is not a draw by the 50 move rule against the right
>defence.
>
>There are 2 questions:
>1)Can shredder win against itself(does it capture the knight early enough to
>avoid a draw)?
>
>2)Is there a win for white against the right defence?
>
>The 2 questions are different because the best move for the side with the
>bishops may be not the shortest way to force mate when you consider the 50 move
>rule.
>
>I guess that you can answer only 1 because I do not know of a program that use
>the right KBB vs KN tablebases of distance to conversion and not distance to
>mate.
>
>Uri
Here is the position and the "Autoplay" of Shredder 5. So I believe this
answers the question. I think since Shredder captures the Knight on its 50th
move the game is won even under the 50 move rule which is not a mandatory rule
if I understand correctly. I believe if you are playing computer/computer games
with tablebases involved you would wave the 50 move rule. The only reason for
the 50 move rule in the first place is that humans could play on forever and not
make progress. This does not apply to computers with tablebases. I made the
diagram with black on the move since white has just captured the pawn. This
does bring up the question of when to start the count if using the 50 move rule.
I assume it starts on whites next move after the capture (move 2 below). The
Knight is captured on the 50th move if my count is correct.
Jim
[D]8/6B1/8/8/1k6/8/K7/3B4 b - - Mate in 67 for white
[Event "5 Minutes/game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2000.12.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gambit Shredder"]
[Black "Chess Tiger 13"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/2n4B/8/8/K2B1k2/8/8/8 b - -"]
1... Ne6 {-M66/4 0s} 2. Bb2 {+M66/4 0s} Ng5 {-M65/4 0s}
3. Bc1+ {+M65/4 0s} Kg4 {-M64/4 0s} 4. Bd3 {+M64/4 0s} Ne6
{-M63/4 0s} 5. Kb5 {+M63/4 0s} Nf4 {-M62/4 0s} 6. Bc2
{+M62/4 0s} Kf3 {-M61/4 0s} 7. Kc4 {+M61/4 0s} Ne6 {-M60/4
0s} 8. Bb2 {+M60/4 0s} Nf4 {-M59/4 0s} 9. Kd4 {+M59/4 0s}
Kf2 {-M58/4 0s} 10. Ke5 {+M58/4 0s} Kf3 {-M57/4 0s}
11. Be4+ {+M57/4 0s} Kg3 {-M56/4 0s} 12. Kf5 {+M56/4 0s}
Ng2 {-M55/4 0s} 13. Be5+ {+M55/4 0s} Kf2 {-M54/4 0s}
14. Bc7 {+M54/4 0s} Ne1 {-M53/4 0s} 15. Bb6+ {+M53/4 0s}
Kg3 {-M52/4 0s} 16. Bd5 {+M52/4 0s} Ng2 {-M51/4 0s} 17. Kg5
{+M51/4 0s} Ne1 {-M50/4 0s} 18. Bc7+ {+M50/4 0s} Kf2
{-M49/4 0s} 19. Kg4 {+M49/4 0s} Ke3 {-M48/4 0s} 20. Bb6+
{+M48/4 0s} Kd3 {-M47/4 0s} 21. Bf7 {+M47/4 0s} Nc2 {-M46/4
0s} 22. Bg6+ {+M46/4 0s} Kc3 {-M45/4 0s} 23. Ba5+ {+M45/4
0s} Kb3 {-M44/4 0s} 24. Kf4 {+M44/4 0s} Nb4 {-M43/4 0s}
25. Bf7+ {+M43/4 0s} Ka4 {-M42/4 0s} 26. Bb6 {+M42/4 0s}
Kb5 {-M41/4 0s} 27. Be3 {+M41/4 0s} Kc6 {-M40/4 0s} 28. Ke5
{+M40/4 0s} Nd3+ {-M39/4 0s} 29. Kd4 {+M39/4 0s} Nc5
{-M38/4 0s} 30. Bd5+ {+M38/4 0s} Kb5 {-M37/4 0s} 31. Bf2
{+M37/4 0s} Kb4 {-M36/4 0s} 32. Bf7 {+M36/4 0s} Nb3+
{-M35/4 0s} 33. Ke4 {+M35/4 0s} Nc5+ {-M34/4 0s} 34. Kd5
{+M34/4 0s} Na4 {-M33/4 0s} 35. Kd4 {+M33/4 0s} Nc5 {-M32/4
0s} 36. Be1+ {+M32/4 0s} Kb5 {-M31/4 0s} 37. Kd5 {+M31/4
0s} Nb3 {-M30/4 0s} 38. Be8+ {+M30/4 0s} Kb6 {-M29/4 0s}
39. Kd6 {+M29/4 0s} Ka6 {-M28/4 0s} 40. Bd7 {+M28/4 0s} Kb6
{-M27/4 0s} 41. Bc3 {+M27/4 0s} Ka6 {-M26/4 0s} 42. Bg4
{+M26/4 0s} Kb5 {-M25/4 0s} 43. Be2+ {+M25/4 0s} Ka4
{-M24/4 0s} 44. Bd1 {+M24/4 0s} Ka3 {-M23/4 0s} 45. Kd5
{+M23/4 0s} Ka2 {-M22/4 0s} 46. Kc4 {+M22/4 0s} Nc1 {-M21/4
0s} 47. Bg7 {+M21/4 0s} Ka3 {-M20/4 0s} 48. Kc3 {+M20/4 0s}
Na2+ {-M19/4 0s} 49. Kc2 {+M19/4 0s} Ka4 {-M18/4 0s}
50. Kb2+ {+M18/4 0s} Kb4 {-M17/4 0s} 51. Kxa2 {+M17/4 0s}
Kc4 {-M16/4 0s} 52. Bc2 {+M16/4 0s} Kd5 {-M15/4 0s} 53. Kb3
{+M15/4 0s} Kd6 {-M14/4 0s} 54. Kc4 {+M14/4 0s} Ke6 {-M13/4
0s} 55. Kd4 {+M13/4 0s} Kd6 {-M12/4 0s} 56. Be5+ {+M12/4
0s} Ke6 {-M11/4 0s} 57. Bg6 {+M11/4 0s} Kd7 {-M10/4 0s}
58. Kd5 {+M10/4 0s} Ke7 {-M9/4 0s} 59. Bh5 {+M9/4 0s} Kd7
{-M8/4 0s} 60. Bd6 {+M8/4 0s} Kc8 {-M7/4 0s} 61. Kc6 {+M7/4
0s} Kd8 {-M6/4 0s} 62. Bf7 {+M6/4 0s} Kc8 {-M5/4 0s}
63. Be7 {+M5/4 0s} Kb8 {-M4/4 0s} 64. Kb6 {+M4/4 0s} Kc8
{-M3/4 0s} 65. Be6+ {+M3/4 0s} Kb8 {-M2/4 0s} 66. Bd6+
{+M2/4 0s} Ka8 {-M1/4 0s} 67. Bd5+ {+M1/1 0s} *
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