Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 10:49:33 01/09/01
Go up one level in this thread
On January 08, 2001 at 13:14:13, Hermano Ecuadoriano wrote: >On January 08, 2001 at 10:16:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On January 07, 2001 at 13:51:14, Thomas Mayer wrote: >> >>>Hi Hermano, >>> >>>On January 06, 2001 at 21:15:07, Hermano Ecuadoriano wrote: >>> >>>>Does Shredder's GUI force the non-native engines (like Gandalf) >>>>to clear their hashtables between moves? >>>I have tested together with a beta of mine a little bit around with Shredder 5: >>>The GUI has the same brain damage then Chessbase... Without special adjustment >>>to the GUI, no engine works properly, and it is more complicated then within >>>Chessbase because Chessbase sends a "fritz"-command to the engine so that the >>>engine knows it is working under Chessbase GUI... (If it reacts on the >>>"fritz"-statement anyway)... Shredder 5 does not send anything... But some >>>things are also better: the way Shredder 5 sends the time control is better >>>because it is send AFTER the move list, what will help most engines... >>>In my engine Quark, I have a special Shredder5 statement in the ini-file where >>>you can tell the engine manually that it is working under Shredder5 or not, so >>>that it could play with nearly full strength under Shredder5... (Anyway, might >>>be not so interesting for you, Quark is one of the lower bunch engines but one >>>of the only with special adjustments to shredder 5 ... thanks to my >>>beta-testers, I myself have not shredder 5 at the moment and it is really hard >>>work to email around versions... I wonder if they will once release kind of a >>>demo-version, because it will be much easier to implement all those features >>>according to shredder if you can test with the gui yourself...) >>> >>>Greets, Thomas >> >>Yeah, shredder is deadly expensive. 200 marks and you can't buy >>it seperated only with crap you already have. >> >>Weird that they don't sell S5 seperated. Either you buy all the crap >>or nothing. I had thrown away all my old genius disks so no 'update' >>price either. >> >>What i would like to know is what kind of winboard commands it ships >>that people get so excited here. What are the *exact* commands it >>ships? >> >>I mean posts like: "clearing hashtable" that's bullshit. You can only >>clear hashtable if a programmer has implemented that command to a command >>that you know! > > >Hey... The previous poster made a report on some testing that was done on S5. >snip >>>The GUI has the same brain damage then Chessbase... Without special adjustment >>>to the GUI, no engine works properly >snip >He reports that he is implementing a special command "shredder" to warn his >engine about various demands placed upon it by the S5 GUI. In my post, I asked >about "hashtable clearing", but that is only one of many possible problems. >Another is pondering properly. I doubt that Gandalf or Crafty has a "shredder" >command, yet. But Crafty, at least, that I know of, eventually had to implement >a "fritz" command. Chessbase provided this warning-flag when it became aware of >the need of it, to put it generously. It was not "bull manure". >Here is some info that explains why some people became "excited" about this. >First some documentation, then my conclusions: Crafty has no "fritz" command. I have no idea what such a command would need to do, in fact. But you can certainly check the source files by doing a grep fritz *.h *.c to see that there is no "fritz" string _anywhere_ in the source. > >BEGIN CHESSBASE DOCUMENTATION >http://www.chessbase.com/Products/engines/winboard/tech.htm > >snip > >Here's what you need: > >Mandatory: >"new" (some programs don't have that, they won't work) >snip >"force" >snip > >Additional: >snip >"fritz" (sent once as first command, engine may switch state to be better >support our interface) >snip > >snip >Please note that the Fritz interface has a different logic compared to Winboard. >[COMMENT: Here is the meaning of the phrase, "get the whole >information with every position to search", which will be used in the next >paragraph.] Before any computation is started the engine will receive a "new", >"edit" (if it's a position), "force" (if there are moves), and all moves of the >game. [COMMENT: this paragraph continues with more commands >sent before every move.] >snip I hope they don't really do that. If so, it is _horrible_. I won't insult the word "broken" by using it in this context. > >Shortcomings: >snip >Some engines may not be suited perfectly to get the whole information with every >position to search, they where written to work best incrementally. [COMMENT: >Like HIARCS6.] For example [COMMENT: This is only one example that they're >citing.] hashtables may be cleared with "new". Solution: Simply do not clear >your hashtables when you know you are in Fritz mode (first command was fritz, >see above). [COMMENT: See, now we have a "fritz mode", but this is too late for >HIARCS6.eng. Will we learn later that S5 requires a "shredder mode", too late >for Gandalf4.32g? I hope you are able to understand that I have posed a >reasonable question that should be investigated.] >snip >END CHESSBASE DOCUMENTATION > >This proves that Chessbase is (now) aware, or is (now) willing to document, that >some programs (because of various pregame setup routines, for example >but not limited to "clearing hashtables") will not run optimally (to say the >least in some cases) under their interface, and should be warned, by this new >"fritz" command. Again, this is too late to help HIARCS6.eng. > >My question is reasonable, then: > >Does the Shredder GUI do these kinds of things, and if so, does it politely >inform the engine with the "fritz" command!? >Have they provided a new "shredder" command? >If so, the engine authors will have to get busy to implement it, and the >buyer should be informed by SOMEBODY that some engines might need to be >upgraded with some additional commands before they will run right under S5. > >If some engines are not going to run right under the Shredder GUI, >regardless of who's at "fault", let the buyer be warned BEFOREHAND... >THIS TIME. This is all utter nonsense. The winboard engine protocol is well-known, it works _perfectly_ with winboard/xboard. Why can't the GUI designers/writers simply follow the protocol rather than hacking in ugly ways of doing things?
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