Author: Hermano Ecuadoriano
Date: 11:32:33 01/09/01
Go up one level in this thread
On January 09, 2001 at 13:49:33, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 08, 2001 at 13:14:13, Hermano Ecuadoriano wrote: > >>On January 08, 2001 at 10:16:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On January 07, 2001 at 13:51:14, Thomas Mayer wrote: >>> >>>>Hi Hermano, >>>> >>>>On January 06, 2001 at 21:15:07, Hermano Ecuadoriano wrote: >>>> >>>>>Does Shredder's GUI force the non-native engines (like Gandalf) >>>>>to clear their hashtables between moves? >>>>I have tested together with a beta of mine a little bit around with Shredder 5: >>>>The GUI has the same brain damage then Chessbase... Without special adjustment >>>>to the GUI, no engine works properly, and it is more complicated then within >>>>Chessbase because Chessbase sends a "fritz"-command to the engine so that the >>>>engine knows it is working under Chessbase GUI... (If it reacts on the >>>>"fritz"-statement anyway)... Shredder 5 does not send anything... But some >>>>things are also better: the way Shredder 5 sends the time control is better >>>>because it is send AFTER the move list, what will help most engines... >>>>In my engine Quark, I have a special Shredder5 statement in the ini-file where >>>>you can tell the engine manually that it is working under Shredder5 or not, so >>>>that it could play with nearly full strength under Shredder5... (Anyway, might >>>>be not so interesting for you, Quark is one of the lower bunch engines but one >>>>of the only with special adjustments to shredder 5 ... thanks to my >>>>beta-testers, I myself have not shredder 5 at the moment and it is really hard >>>>work to email around versions... I wonder if they will once release kind of a >>>>demo-version, because it will be much easier to implement all those features >>>>according to shredder if you can test with the gui yourself...) >>>> >>>>Greets, Thomas >>> >>>Yeah, shredder is deadly expensive. 200 marks and you can't buy >>>it seperated only with crap you already have. >>> >>>Weird that they don't sell S5 seperated. Either you buy all the crap >>>or nothing. I had thrown away all my old genius disks so no 'update' >>>price either. >>> >>>What i would like to know is what kind of winboard commands it ships >>>that people get so excited here. What are the *exact* commands it >>>ships? >>> >>>I mean posts like: "clearing hashtable" that's bullshit. You can only >>>clear hashtable if a programmer has implemented that command to a command >>>that you know! >> >> >>Hey... The previous poster made a report on some testing that was done on S5. >>snip >>>>The GUI has the same brain damage then Chessbase... Without special adjustment >>>>to the GUI, no engine works properly >>snip >>He reports that he is implementing a special command "shredder" to warn his >>engine about various demands placed upon it by the S5 GUI. In my post, I asked >>about "hashtable clearing", but that is only one of many possible problems. >>Another is pondering properly. I doubt that Gandalf or Crafty has a "shredder" >>command, yet. But Crafty, at least, that I know of, eventually had to implement >>a "fritz" command. Chessbase provided this warning-flag when it became aware of >>the need of it, to put it generously. It was not "bull manure". >>Here is some info that explains why some people became "excited" about this. >>First some documentation, then my conclusions: > >Crafty has no "fritz" command. Oops. I'm sorry. >I have no idea what such a command would >need to do, in fact. Sorry, it isn't a command; it is a "flag" in the input stream. "fritz" is used to inform the program that "new" should NOT clear the hashtables, but that the new command "reset" MUST. My sources are the Chessbase and Xboard/Winboard documentation. You must have adapted some other way. >But you can certainly check the source files by >doing a > >grep fritz *.h *.c > >to see that there is no "fritz" string _anywhere_ in the source. > > > >> >>BEGIN CHESSBASE DOCUMENTATION >>http://www.chessbase.com/Products/engines/winboard/tech.htm >> >>snip >> >>Here's what you need: >> >>Mandatory: >>"new" (some programs don't have that, they won't work) >>snip >>"force" >>snip >> >>Additional: >>snip >>"fritz" (sent once as first command, engine may switch state to be better >>support our interface) >>snip >> >>snip >>Please note that the Fritz interface has a different logic compared to Winboard. >>[COMMENT: Here is the meaning of the phrase, "get the whole >>information with every position to search", which will be used in the next >>paragraph.] Before any computation is started the engine will receive a "new", >>"edit" (if it's a position), "force" (if there are moves), and all moves of the >>game. [COMMENT: this paragraph continues with more commands >>sent before every move.] >>snip > >I hope they don't really do that. If so, it is _horrible_. I won't insult >the word "broken" by using it in this context. > > > >> >>Shortcomings: >>snip >>Some engines may not be suited perfectly to get the whole information with every >>position to search, they where written to work best incrementally. [COMMENT: >>Like HIARCS6.] For example [COMMENT: This is only one example that they're >>citing.] hashtables may be cleared with "new". Solution: Simply do not clear >>your hashtables when you know you are in Fritz mode (first command was fritz, >>see above). [COMMENT: See, now we have a "fritz mode", but this is too late for >>HIARCS6.eng. Will we learn later that S5 requires a "shredder mode", too late >>for Gandalf4.32g? I hope you are able to understand that I have posed a >>reasonable question that should be investigated.] >>snip >>END CHESSBASE DOCUMENTATION >> >>This proves that Chessbase is (now) aware, or is (now) willing to document, that >>some programs (because of various pregame setup routines, for example >>but not limited to "clearing hashtables") will not run optimally (to say the >>least in some cases) under their interface, and should be warned, by this new >>"fritz" command. Again, this is too late to help HIARCS6.eng. >> >>My question is reasonable, then: >> >>Does the Shredder GUI do these kinds of things, and if so, does it politely >>inform the engine with the "fritz" command!? >>Have they provided a new "shredder" command? >>If so, the engine authors will have to get busy to implement it, and the >>buyer should be informed by SOMEBODY that some engines might need to be >>upgraded with some additional commands before they will run right under S5. >> >>If some engines are not going to run right under the Shredder GUI, >>regardless of who's at "fault", let the buyer be warned BEFOREHAND... >>THIS TIME. > > >This is all utter nonsense. The winboard engine protocol is well-known, it >works _perfectly_ with winboard/xboard. Why can't the GUI designers/writers >simply follow the protocol rather than hacking in ugly ways of doing things?
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