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Subject: Re: Handling of KNN-kp positions.

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 05:57:04 02/11/98

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On February 11, 1998 at 02:52:29, Bernhard Bauer wrote:

>On February 10, 1998 at 12:09:49, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>Cool bug.  If you want to see other bugs of this type, try setting up
>>positions where each side has only one minor piece, but there is a mate
>>in one.
>>
>>For instance something like
>>
>>5Bbk/8/7K/8/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
>>
>
>Crafty gives:
>
>   White(1): Bg7#
>              time used:   0.18
>
>   Crafty offers a draw.
>
>So after mating Crafty offers a draw.
>
>>When I tried this a few years ago I found that several programs called
>>this a draw.  Maybe they still do.
>>
>
>Looks like you are right.
>
>>Regarding 5-piece endgame databases, I have a whole bunch of them, but I
>>don't actually use very many on ICC, since the Alpha doesn't have enough
>>disk.
>>
>>One of the ones I put on the Alpha, almost as a lark, was KP vs KNN, and
>>it has come in handy twice, which was twice more than I expected.
>>
>
>I think it's a good idea to do things in a proper way. Crippling down a
>program for speed reasons may be a bad idea and may give the customers
>a bad feeling. It would be better to insert a line of code like:
>

you are assuming facts not in evidence.  The reason *I* do what I did is
to win games that are winnable.  IE imagine a position where there are 7
pieces on the board.  White has a king, two knights and a pawn.  Black
has
a king knight and bishop.  Crafty finds a way to win one of black's
pieces for a pawn, and concludes "hey, I have two pieces vs one piece
for my opponent,
that's +3, so I'm going for it since the current score is only + 1.  But
the resulting position ends up a draw.  Since it is impossible to
determine
which are winnable and which are drawable by search, I have to either
say
"draw or +3".  DRAW is right 99.99999 percent of the time.

It isn't a speed issue at all.  IE imagine intentionally heading into
these
+3 types of position tactically, only to find out 50 moves later there
was
no way to win.  It happened many times until I fixed this.  I'd rather
win
100 and draw 1, than draw 100 and win 1.

>XXX will not handle this position properly due to speed reasons. STOP.
>
>Here are 2 positions from V. Albillo's home page that cause difficulties
>to crafty.
>
>8/1k1K4/8/8/1pN5/1N6/8/8 w - - bm Nc5+; id "VA19: 6mate";
>8/8/8/5K2/7k/7p/7N/7N w - - bm Nf2; id "VA20: 9mate";
>
>Now I know why.
>
>Regards
>Bernhard
>>bruce



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