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Subject: Re: Handling of KNN-kp positions.

Author: Baier Helfried

Date: 00:24:45 02/12/98

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On February 11, 1998 at 08:57:04, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On February 11, 1998 at 02:52:29, Bernhard Bauer wrote:
>
>>On February 10, 1998 at 12:09:49, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>
>>>Cool bug.  If you want to see other bugs of this type, try setting up
>>>positions where each side has only one minor piece, but there is a mate
>>>in one.
>>>
>>>For instance something like
>>>
>>>5Bbk/8/7K/8/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
>>>
>>
>>Crafty gives:
>>
>>   White(1): Bg7#
>>              time used:   0.18
>>
>>   Crafty offers a draw.
>>
>>So after mating Crafty offers a draw.
>>
>>>When I tried this a few years ago I found that several programs called
>>>this a draw.  Maybe they still do.
>>>
>>
>>Looks like you are right.
>>
>>>Regarding 5-piece endgame databases, I have a whole bunch of them, but I
>>>don't actually use very many on ICC, since the Alpha doesn't have enough
>>>disk.
>>>
>>>One of the ones I put on the Alpha, almost as a lark, was KP vs KNN, and
>>>it has come in handy twice, which was twice more than I expected.
>>>
>>
>>I think it's a good idea to do things in a proper way. Crippling down a
>>program for speed reasons may be a bad idea and may give the customers
>>a bad feeling. It would be better to insert a line of code like:
>>
>
>you are assuming facts not in evidence.  The reason *I* do what I did is
>to win games that are winnable.  IE imagine a position where there are 7
>pieces on the board.  White has a king, two knights and a pawn.  Black
>has
>a king knight and bishop.  Crafty finds a way to win one of black's
>pieces for a pawn, and concludes "hey, I have two pieces vs one piece
>for my opponent,
>that's +3, so I'm going for it since the current score is only + 1.  But
>the resulting position ends up a draw.  Since it is impossible to
>determine
>which are winnable and which are drawable by search, I have to either
>say
>"draw or +3".  DRAW is right 99.99999 percent of the time.
>
>It isn't a speed issue at all.  IE imagine intentionally heading into
>these
>+3 types of position tactically, only to find out 50 moves later there
>was
>no way to win.  It happened many times until I fixed this.  I'd rather
>win
>100 and draw 1, than draw 100 and win 1.
>
>>XXX will not handle this position properly due to speed reasons. STOP.
>>
>>Here are 2 positions from V. Albillo's home page that cause difficulties
>>to crafty.
>>
>>8/1k1K4/8/8/1pN5/1N6/8/8 w - - bm Nc5+; id "VA19: 6mate";
>>8/8/8/5K2/7k/7p/7N/7N w - - bm Nf2; id "VA20: 9mate";
>>
>>Now I know why.
>>
>>Regards
>>Bernhard
>>>bruce


as far as I know KQx-k  (x is Q,R,...) positions are all 1-0 positions
except for a stalemate. Does Crafty use this tablebase files or can I
delete it?


Regards

Helfried



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