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Subject: Re: pawn endgame position

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 14:59:25 01/23/01

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On January 22, 2001 at 17:13:17, Uri Blass wrote:

>On January 22, 2001 at 16:02:56, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On January 22, 2001 at 14:55:49, Peter Berger wrote:
>>
>>>A tough position it seems .
>>>
>>>Although none of them is "mine" , a try :
>>>
>>>"Bringer"
>>>
>>>0:00:00.1  ( 4/12)       3891   4.87  f6-e6  d7-f7  f5-f6
>>>0:00:00.2  ( 5/13)      17765   4.83  f6-e6  d7-f7  h2-h4  a5-a4  e6xf7  g8xf7
>>>e5-e6  f7-e7  h4-h5
>>>0:00:00.5  ( 6/15)      58783   4.72  f6-e6  d7-f7  h2-h4  a5-a4  e6xf7  g8xf7
>>>e5-e6  f7-e7
>>>0:00:00.7  ( 6/16)      86563   4.73  f6-g6
>>>0:00:01.9  ( 7/18)     212939   4.72  f6-g6  g8-f8  g6-h6  f8-g8  h6-e6
>>>0:00:05.1  ( 8/23)     645145   4.74  f6-g6  g8-f8  g6-h6  f8-g8  h6-e6
>>>0:00:13.4  ( 9/27)    1869222   4.61  f6-g6  g8-f8  g6-h6  f8-g8  h6-e6
>>>0:00:17.1  ( 9/27)    2428949   4.63  f6-e6  d7xe6  f5xe6  g8-f8
>>>0:00:29.8  (10/30)    4346163   4.23  f6-e6  d7xe6
>>>0:00:30.8  (10/30)    4559520   3.83  f6-e6  d7xe6
>>>0:00:32.7  (10/30)    4871934   1.97  f6-e6  d7xe6  f5xe6  g8-f8  d5-d6  c7xd6
>>>e5xd6  a5-a4  h1-g1  b4-b3  a2xb3  a4-a3  d6-d7
>>>0:00:41.8  (10/30)    6179798   1.98  f6-g6
>>>0:00:42.7  (10/30)    6346445   2.48  f6-g6
>>>0:01:34.8  (10/36)   13206630   2.49  e5-e6
>>>0:01:44.8  (10/36)   14944128   2.99  e5-e6
>>>0:02:03.3  (10/36)   17506577   3.00  f6-g5
>>>0:02:28.9  (10/36)   21440299   3.35  f6-g5  g8-f8  d5-d6
>>>0:03:57.7  (11/36)   34278234   3.26  f6-g5  g8-f8  d5-d6
>>>
>>>So , Bringer might be lucky and avoid it at fast blitz time control but needs 43
>>>secs to avoid it for the right reasons it seems .
>>>
>>>In fact this position is a hard challenge for the commercials, too :
>>>
>>>"Century 3"
>>>
>>>00:00:24 11.00  10.63   1.De6+ Dxe6 2.fxe6 Kf8 3.d6 cxd6
>>>                       4.exd6 a4 5.d5 a3 6.d7 Ke7 7.h4
>>>                       b3 8.d6 Kd8  (23) (0.00)
>>>
>>>00:00:50 12.00  8.02   1.De6+ Dxe6 2.fxe6 Kf8 3.d6 cxd6
>>>                       4.exd6 a4 5.d5 a3 6.d7 Ke7 7.h3
>>>                       b3 8.d6 Kxe6 9.d8  (32) (0.00)
>>>
>>>00:03:00 13.00  0.44   1.De6+ Dxe6 2.fxe6 Kf8 3.Kg2 a4
>>>                       4.d6  (159) (0.00)
>>>
>>>No news after 15 minutes , so probably Rebel can't avoid it at tournament time
>>>control .
>>>
>>>Both tried on PIII500 .
>>>
>>>pete
>>
>>
>>The problem is endgame knowledge.  A program _ought_ to know that if you have
>>a passer, then trade pieces to reach a won ending.  Only in this case, that
>>heuristic back-fires as it is black who ends up winning.  This is a _tough_
>>exception to handle...
>>
>>although a GM would tell you instantly "No I won't trade queens..."
>
>IM's and FM's would also say it instantly.

Sorry i hope to get IM real soon (year or 2),
but i was amazed it lost for white. With king on g2
white has a very simple win here.

The whole problem here is a tactical problem as you win a tempo
with black because of the promotion check by black.

So in short this problem is not very valid, it's just a lucky
shot that black wins. At first sight i might have traded too.
If i would play a 40 in 2 game for sure i would not trade as
i would see for sure that qe6 doesn't walk as fast because of
the check.

When i saw the post that black wins in this position after qe6
i directly realized the check was the problem and *not* the
rest of the board. So in short it's just a lucky shot of black
which proves why playing on safe like i do as a human is always winning
quite chanceless in positions like this.

If i would have had white then my king WOULD have been on g2,
i can assure you that :)




>>
>>And no, there is no point in starting another "is the computer a GM?"
>>thread.  So long as they can fall for these positions, the answer is pretty
>>obvious.
>
>No.
>
>By the same logic you could claim that they are also not IM's and not FM's.
>
>The only test is games and Rebel proved that it can win a match of 6 games
>against a GM so it seems to be better than part of the GM's inspite of some
>weaknesses.
>
>Uri



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