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Subject: Re: Have You seen this: quite unbelievable!

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 11:40:01 01/31/01

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On January 31, 2001 at 14:03:09, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:

>On January 31, 2001 at 13:47:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On January 31, 2001 at 11:04:05, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>>
>>>On January 31, 2001 at 09:29:49, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 08:35:34, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 01:00:18, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.computerschach.de/tourn/cad2001/cad2001.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In Gadeques tournament Deep Fritz - Shredder 5 ended 10-10. But 14 games were
>>>>>>won by white! And I thought, that whites advantage is minimal in computer chess.
>>>>>>Have programs killer books or what?
>>>>>
>>>>>As far as Shredder 5.0 is concerned there are no killer variations. The book is
>>>>>made mainly for the human players and with a lot of alternatives to make it play
>>>>>different lines. There are very few very long variations. Of course there are
>>>>>good move against weak ones, but not deep variations.
>>>>>So, it is a sort of compromise to make the program fun to play with.
>>>>>Since we drew 6 games and lost 7, there is still a a lot of room for
>>>>>improvements...
>>>>>
>>>>>Sandro Necchi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>
>>>>I'm saving this message to quote later in my life.
>>>
>>>You can dump it. In my games, Shredder 5 didn't play one single killer line.
>>>
>>>Enrique
>>
>>
>>What is your definition of a killer line?
>
>A line that doesn't exist in opening theory and gives decisive advantage to the
>program that plays it.

I don't want to join the argument, particularly.  But my definition is a bit
different.  I would call a line a "killer line" if it is chosen specifically
because it leads to a win against a specific opponent.  IE the line everybody
is smashing tiger with, 1. h4 and 2. h5 is a non-theory line that is known to
lead to a win in nearly every game.  By your definition that is _also_ a killer
line.  But If I play some games vs some other program, and I discover that if
I play some variation of the Guioco Piano, I will win most of the games against
that program, then I would call _that_ line a killer line as well.

IE I did this very thing against Belle for several years, as I hav mentioned
before.  Belle did this against other programs (myself included) for the same
reason.

I consider either type of opening as a "cooked book"...




>
>>A definition of mine could be: "knowing in advance that you make a full
>>point with it against a certain program X1 which is having book X2".
>>
>>I remember 60 moves killer lines in mchess
>
>I don't know how many, but Mchess was full of them. Evals of +2 or more
>immediately after book were not so rare. Sometimes Mchess left book with a mate
>evaluation. :)
>
>In my games, the new books of Deep Fritz, Nimzo 8 and Gandalf are too recent to
>be cooked, but the books of Junior 6 and Gambit are old enough, and still I
>didn't see any killer lines played by Shredder 5. As far as I can tell, we are
>not facing a new "Mchess case". You can download the games and take a look at
>the lines.
>
>Enrique



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