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Subject: Re: Have You seen this: quite unbelievable!

Author: Chuck

Date: 19:15:26 01/31/01

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On January 31, 2001 at 14:03:09, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:

>On January 31, 2001 at 13:47:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On January 31, 2001 at 11:04:05, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>>
>>>On January 31, 2001 at 09:29:49, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 08:35:34, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 01:00:18, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.computerschach.de/tourn/cad2001/cad2001.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In Gadeques tournament Deep Fritz - Shredder 5 ended 10-10. But 14 games were
>>>>>>won by white! And I thought, that whites advantage is minimal in computer chess.
>>>>>>Have programs killer books or what?
>>>>>
>>>>>As far as Shredder 5.0 is concerned there are no killer variations. The book is
>>>>>made mainly for the human players and with a lot of alternatives to make it play
>>>>>different lines. There are very few very long variations. Of course there are
>>>>>good move against weak ones, but not deep variations.
>>>>>So, it is a sort of compromise to make the program fun to play with.
>>>>>Since we drew 6 games and lost 7, there is still a a lot of room for
>>>>>improvements...
>>>>>
>>>>>Sandro Necchi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>
>>>>I'm saving this message to quote later in my life.
>>>
>>>You can dump it. In my games, Shredder 5 didn't play one single killer line.
>>>
>>>Enrique
>>
>>
>>What is your definition of a killer line?
>
>A line that doesn't exist in opening theory and gives decisive advantage to the
>program that plays it.
>
>>A definition of mine could be: "knowing in advance that you make a full
>>point with it against a certain program X1 which is having book X2".
>>
>>I remember 60 moves killer lines in mchess
>
>I don't know how many, but Mchess was full of them. Evals of +2 or more
>immediately after book were not so rare. Sometimes Mchess left book with a mate
>evaluation. :)

I don't particularly see anything wrong with "booking" against certain
opponents, we do it in human games, too. But didn't Sandro Necchi also do some
of the books for MChess? I find that an odd coincedence worth noting, and a
little humorous, too. Still, I feel only the losing program is to blame - with a
wide book and some learning to adjust it, this shouldn't be a serious problem.
How many killer lines can you cook against one program anyway? I have noticed
that Tiger, who is reportedly suffering from this on ICC, seems to often be in
book several moves after comp opponents, too.

>
>In my games, the new books of Deep Fritz, Nimzo 8 and Gandalf are too recent to
>be cooked, but the books of Junior 6 and Gambit are old enough, and still I
>didn't see any killer lines played by Shredder 5. As far as I can tell, we are
>not facing a new "Mchess case". You can download the games and take a look at
>the lines.
>
>Enrique



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