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Subject: Re: Have You seen this: quite unbelievable!

Author: Enrique Irazoqui

Date: 03:23:02 02/01/01

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On January 31, 2001 at 22:15:26, Chuck wrote:

>On January 31, 2001 at 14:03:09, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>
>>On January 31, 2001 at 13:47:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On January 31, 2001 at 11:04:05, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 09:29:49, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 08:35:34, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 01:00:18, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.computerschach.de/tourn/cad2001/cad2001.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In Gadeques tournament Deep Fritz - Shredder 5 ended 10-10. But 14 games were
>>>>>>>won by white! And I thought, that whites advantage is minimal in computer chess.
>>>>>>>Have programs killer books or what?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As far as Shredder 5.0 is concerned there are no killer variations. The book is
>>>>>>made mainly for the human players and with a lot of alternatives to make it play
>>>>>>different lines. There are very few very long variations. Of course there are
>>>>>>good move against weak ones, but not deep variations.
>>>>>>So, it is a sort of compromise to make the program fun to play with.
>>>>>>Since we drew 6 games and lost 7, there is still a a lot of room for
>>>>>>improvements...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sandro Necchi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm saving this message to quote later in my life.
>>>>
>>>>You can dump it. In my games, Shredder 5 didn't play one single killer line.
>>>>
>>>>Enrique
>>>
>>>
>>>What is your definition of a killer line?
>>
>>A line that doesn't exist in opening theory and gives decisive advantage to the
>>program that plays it.
>>
>>>A definition of mine could be: "knowing in advance that you make a full
>>>point with it against a certain program X1 which is having book X2".
>>>
>>>I remember 60 moves killer lines in mchess
>>
>>I don't know how many, but Mchess was full of them. Evals of +2 or more
>>immediately after book were not so rare. Sometimes Mchess left book with a mate
>>evaluation. :)
>
>I don't particularly see anything wrong with "booking" against certain
>opponents, we do it in human games, too. But didn't Sandro Necchi also do some
>of the books for MChess? I find that an odd coincedence worth noting, and a
>little humorous, too. Still, I feel only the losing program is to blame - with a
>wide book and some learning to adjust it, this shouldn't be a serious problem.

Yes, I agree. This thing about killer lines became anecdotic. Wide books and
learners take such good care of them that I guess the effort of finding cooks is
not worth it anymore.

Enrique

>How many killer lines can you cook against one program anyway? I have noticed
>that Tiger, who is reportedly suffering from this on ICC, seems to often be in
>book several moves after comp opponents, too.
>
>>
>>In my games, the new books of Deep Fritz, Nimzo 8 and Gandalf are too recent to
>>be cooked, but the books of Junior 6 and Gambit are old enough, and still I
>>didn't see any killer lines played by Shredder 5. As far as I can tell, we are
>>not facing a new "Mchess case". You can download the games and take a look at
>>the lines.
>>
>>Enrique



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