Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 06:38:11 02/01/01
Go up one level in this thread
On January 31, 2001 at 15:50:08, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>On January 31, 2001 at 14:40:01, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On January 31, 2001 at 14:03:09, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>>
>>>On January 31, 2001 at 13:47:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 11:04:05, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 09:29:49, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 08:35:34, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On January 31, 2001 at 01:00:18, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.computerschach.de/tourn/cad2001/cad2001.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In Gadeques tournament Deep Fritz - Shredder 5 ended 10-10. But 14 games were
>>>>>>>>won by white! And I thought, that whites advantage is minimal in computer chess.
>>>>>>>>Have programs killer books or what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As far as Shredder 5.0 is concerned there are no killer variations. The book is
>>>>>>>made mainly for the human players and with a lot of alternatives to make it play
>>>>>>>different lines. There are very few very long variations. Of course there are
>>>>>>>good move against weak ones, but not deep variations.
>>>>>>>So, it is a sort of compromise to make the program fun to play with.
>>>>>>>Since we drew 6 games and lost 7, there is still a a lot of room for
>>>>>>>improvements...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sandro Necchi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm saving this message to quote later in my life.
>>>>>
>>>>>You can dump it. In my games, Shredder 5 didn't play one single killer line.
>>>>>
>>>>>Enrique
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What is your definition of a killer line?
>>>
>>>A line that doesn't exist in opening theory and gives decisive advantage to the
>>>program that plays it.
>>
>>I don't want to join the argument, particularly. But my definition is a bit
>>different. I would call a line a "killer line" if it is chosen specifically
>>because it leads to a win against a specific opponent.
>
>The problem is that we don't know what was in the mind of the book maker, so we
>must decide whether or not it is a killer line based on other criteria. For
>instance, A leaves book at move 10, B stays in book until move 28 and then
>starts computing with a mate evaluation. I have seen this sort of thing. If the
>line in question doesn't exist in human games you can be sure it's a cooked
>line.
>
>> IE the line everybody
>>is smashing tiger with, 1. h4 and 2. h5 is a non-theory line that is known to
>>lead to a win in nearly every game. By your definition that is _also_ a killer
>>line.
>
>Sure. Funny kind of, though. :)
>
>> But If I play some games vs some other program, and I discover that if
>>I play some variation of the Guioco Piano, I will win most of the games against
>>that program, then I would call _that_ line a killer line as well.
>
>I wouldn't. I understand your point, but there is also a "moral" and a
>"competent" issue here, I think. In this case, the program that loses to a known
>line of the Giuoco Piano has a lousy book or at least a lousy line it shouldn't
>play. It's fault, then, because the author of the book should have known better.
>Crafty may kill it, but it is not a killer line. To me, I mean.
>
>>IE I did this very thing against Belle for several years, as I hav mentioned
>>before. Belle did this against other programs (myself included) for the same
>>reason.
>>
>>I consider either type of opening as a "cooked book"...
>
>But in those times books and learners were much more primitive than today. Now
>there is little justification for a program falling into a line it dislikes, and
>even less to keep playing it time and again.
>
>So how do you identify a killer line.
>
>1 - It's not theory.
>2 - Quits book with a winning position.
But exactly here lies the problem. In your previous definition
you said +2
Now you say winning position.
How about winning line?
I mean let's take for example a line that still gets played in
human-human games:
K:\diep\nk99>type nimzo.log
d2-d4 (1:30:00,1:30:00) book
d7-d5 (1:30:00,1:29:45)
c2-c4 (1:30:00,1:29:45) book
c7-c6 (1:30:00,1:29:36)
g1-f3 (1:29:59,1:29:36) book
g8-f6 (1:29:59,1:29:26)
b1-c3 (1:29:59,1:29:26) book
d8-d6 (1:29:59,1:29:08)
c1-g5 (1:29:59,1:28:54) book
d5xc4 (1:29:59,1:28:42)
e2-e4 (1:29:59,1:28:42) book
b7-b5 (1:29:59,1:28:32)
e4-e5 (1:29:59,1:28:32) book
h7-h6 (1:29:59,1:28:23)
g5-h4 (1:29:59,1:28:23) book
g7-g5 (1:29:59,1:28:12)
f3xg5 (1:29:59,1:28:12) book
h6xg5 (1:29:59,1:28:00)
h4xg5 (1:29:59,1:28:00) book
b8-d7 (1:29:59,1:27:49)
e5xf6 (1:29:59,1:27:49) book
c8-b7 (1:29:59,1:27:39)
g2-g3 (1:29:59,1:27:39) book
c6-c5 (1:29:59,1:27:23)
d4-d5 (1:29:59,1:27:23) book
d8-b6 (1:29:59,1:25:39)
f1-g2 (1:29:59,1:25:39) book
O-O-O (1:29:59,1:25:21)
O-O (1:29:59,1:25:21) book
b5-b4 (1:29:59,1:25:06)
c3-a4 (1:29:59,1:25:06) book
b6-a6 (1:29:59,1:24:47)
a2-a3 (1:29:59,1:24:47) book
b7xd5 (1:29:59,1:24:36)
g2xd5 (1:29:59,1:24:36) book
d7-e5 (1:29:59,1:24:16)
a3xb4 (1:29:59,1:24:16) book
d8xd5 (1:29:59,1:24:03)
d1-e2 (1:29:59,1:24:03) book
c5xb4 (1:29:59,1:23:38)
a4-c3 (1:29:59,1:23:38) book
d5-a5 (1:29:59,1:23:11)
a1xa5 (1:26:52,1:23:11) 0.54 13 11284964 01:25 5107699 (1041384) 12 0.53 Ra
1xa5 Qa6xa5 Nc3-e4 Qa5-a2 Bg5-c1 Ne5-d3 Ne4-g5 Rh8-h6 Qe2-f3 Kc8-b8 Ng5xf7 Nd3xc
1 Nf7xh6 Bf8xh6
c3-e4 (1:24:04,1:22:57) 0.54 11 11072325 00:00 59 (0) 10 0.53 Nc3-e4 Qa5-a2
Bg5-c1 Qa2-a5 Ne4-g5 Qa5-d5 Rf1-d1 Ne5-d3 Ng5xf7 Rh8-h7 Nf7-g5 Nd3xc1 Rd1xc1 Qd
5xg5 Qe2xc4 Kc8-b7
b2-b3 (1:20:01,1:22:12) 0.55 12 16300962 02:49 11516626 (1642050) 12 0.54 b
2-b3 Qa5-e5 f2-f3 Qe5-b2 Ne4-d2 Bf8-c5 Kg1-g2 Qb2-e5 Nd2-e4 Qe5-c7 b3xc4 Kc8-b8
Qe2xd3 Kb8-b7
e2-e3 (1:16:57,1:21:32) 0.75 12 15255519 01:59 11037807 (1596146) 12 0.74 Q
e2-e3 Nd3-c5 Ne4xc5 Qe5xc5 b3xc4 Qc5xe3 Bg5xe3 a7-a5 Rf1-a1 b4-b3 h2-h4 Bf8-b4
b3xc4 (1:13:21,1:09:53) 1.07 12 13362471 02:18 8666524 (1336105) 12 1.06 b3
xc4 Nd3-c5 f2-f3 Nc5xe4 f3xe4 Qf5-e5 Bg5-f4 Qe5-h5 g3-g4 Qh5xg4 Kg1-h1 Qg4-g6 Bf
4-g3
e4-d2 (1:10:44,1:09:12) 1.03 11 12413584 02:31 12118480 (3008503) 11 1.03 N
e4-d2 a7-a5 h2-h4 a5-a4 Rf1-d1 Kc8-b7 Rd1-b1 b4-b3 Qe3-d4 a4-a3 Rb1-a1
h2-h4 (1:08:46,1:08:32) 1.33 11 7332093 01:48 6714434 (1591440) 11 1.32 h2-
h4 a7-a5 Nd2-f3 Bf8-d6 Rf1-d1 Nc5-e4 Kg1-g2 Bd6-c5 Qe3-d3 Kc8-b8 Rd1-f1
d2-f3 (1:07:30,1:07:53) 1.27 11 7446675 00:47 5577758 (1282583) 11 1.26 Nd2
-f3 Bf8-d6 Rf1-d1 Nc5-e4 Rd1-e1 Ne4-c5 Re1-a1 a5-a4 Ra1-d1 Nc5-e4 Qe3-d3 a4-a3 Q
d3-b3 Bd6-c5 Kg1-h2
f1-d1 (1:07:30,0:56:14) 0.84 11 43645951 06:41 25072034 (7263455) 11 0.84 R
f1-d1 Rg8-d8 Rd1-d4 a5-a4 Kg1-g2 Nc5-b3 Rd4-e4 Bd6-c5 Qe3-e2 Nb3-d4 Nf3xd4 Rd8xd
4
f3-d4 (1:05:07,0:53:50) 0.91 11 18431658 02:18 9064848 (2156239) 11 0.90 Nf
3-d4 Qf5-g4 Rd1-d2 Bd6-c7 Nd4-b5 Qg4xc4 Rd2xd8 Kc8xd8 Nb5xc7 Kd8xc7 Qe3-e5 Kc7-b
6 Bg5-e3
d4-e2 (1:05:07,0:50:50) 0.81 11 11369210 01:34 6042573 (1392948) 10 0.81 Nd
4-e2 Qg4-f5 Rd1-a1 a5-a4 Ne2-d4 Qf5-e5 Qe3-d2 Nc5-e4 Qd2-d1 a4-a3 Nd4-f3 Qe5-c3
Qd1-e2
d1-d4 (1:04:53,0:48:20) 0.48 10 10560834 00:44 2873697 (976330) 10 0.48 Rd1
-d4 a5-a4 Bg5-f4 Bd6xf4 Rd4xd8 Kc8xd8 Ne2xf4 Qf5-b1 Kg1-h2 Nc5-d7 Qe3-a7 a4-a3
g3-g4 (1:02:25,0:47:07) 0.67 10 8979717 02:24 8698058 (3677174) 10 0.66 g3-
g4 Qf5-e5 Qe3-f3 Kc8-c7 Ne2-c3 Kc7-d7 Rd4-d2 Kd7-e8 Qf3-c6 Ke8-f8 Bg5-h6 Kf8-g8
Qc6-f3
e3-f3 (0:59:50,0:46:48) -0.66 12 11203895 01:05 5431352 (1049178) 12 -0.66
Qe3-f3 b3-b2 Qf3-c6 Bd6-c7 Qc6-a8 Bc7-b8 Qa8-c6 Qe5-c7 Rd4xd8 Kc8xd8 Qc6xc7 Kd8x
c7 Ne2-c3 Nc5-e4 Nc3-b1 Kc7-d6
f3-c6+ (0:56:40,0:46:18) -0.92 11 13196001 00:03 238501 (10095) 11 -0.92 Qf3
-c6 Bd6-c7 Qc6-a8 Bc7-b8 Qa8-c6 Qe5-c7 Rd4xd8 Kc8xd8 Qc6xc7 Bb8xc7 Ne2-c3 Nc5-e4
Nc3-b1 Bc7-b6 Bg5-e3 Bb6xe3 f2xe3 Ne4xf6
c6-a8+ (0:54:57,0:45:54) -1.41 14 9441263 01:06 6611308 (388167) 14 -1.41 Qc
6-a8 Bc7-b8 Qa8-c6 Qe5-c7 Rd4xd8 Kc8xd8 Qc6xc7 Bb8xc7 Ne2-c3 a5-a4 Nc3-b1 Nc5-d3
Bg5-e3 Nd3-e5 h4-h5 Ne5xc4 Be3-c5 Kd8-e8
a8-c6+ (0:54:17,0:45:03) -2.04 15 7180016 00:34 6772867 (613335) 15 -2.04 Qa
8-c6 Qe5-c7 Rd4xd8 Kc8xd8 Qc6xc7 Bb8xc7 Ne2-c3 Nc5-e4 Nc3-b1 Ne4xg5 h4xg5 Bc7-f4
g5-g6 f7xg6 Kg1-f1 Bf4-g5 f6-f7 Kd8-e7
d4xd8+ (0:53:09,0:44:40) -2.07 16 7141710 00:18 1435391 (319722) 15 -2.06 Rd
4xd8 Kc8xd8 Qc6xc7 Bb8xc7 Ne2-c3 Nc5-e4 Nc3-b1 Ne4xg5 h4xg5 Bc7-f4 g5-g6 f7xg6 K
g1-g2 Bf4-g5 Kg2-f3 Kd8-e8 Kf3-e4 Bg5xf6
Note the Qa6 move in the bookline is completely lost for black,
but in those days all opponents played the losing a3 move from book
after Qa6 so then you can play Qa6, otherwise Qa6 loses if dxe6 gets
played.
So i call this a killerline. Note both programs were initially
very happy for white.
The average user will say:
"Nimzo played hell of a game in oktober 1999,
It was bad out of book, so book sucks, but
the superb engine still won"
Is the average user correct, or was the bookmaker simply superb in this
case as even nimzo didn't see that it was won till very late in the game,
note nimzo also wasted some tempi (showing how bigtime it was won for
black) by means of Rg8.
The only thing Nimzo showed this game is that it first loses tempi,
then in the end only when it is nearly forced to exchange it exchanges
(exchanging sooner would have won sooner the game), then it very
slowly advances with passers (also that could have been done faster).
In short anything won.
The operator Jan Louwman from Nimzo concluded the same the average
user concludes.
>I guess it's debatable, but anyway we know one when we see one. :)
>
>Enrique
>
>
>>>
>>>>A definition of mine could be: "knowing in advance that you make a full
>>>>point with it against a certain program X1 which is having book X2".
>>>>
>>>>I remember 60 moves killer lines in mchess
>>>
>>>I don't know how many, but Mchess was full of them. Evals of +2 or more
>>>immediately after book were not so rare. Sometimes Mchess left book with a mate
>>>evaluation. :)
>>>
>>>In my games, the new books of Deep Fritz, Nimzo 8 and Gandalf are too recent to
>>>be cooked, but the books of Junior 6 and Gambit are old enough, and still I
>>>didn't see any killer lines played by Shredder 5. As far as I can tell, we are
>>>not facing a new "Mchess case". You can download the games and take a look at
>>>the lines.
>>>
>>>Enrique
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