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Subject: Re: What is the best move from here?

Author: Eelco de Groot

Date: 14:04:25 02/24/01

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On February 24, 2001 at 15:46:35, David Wilke wrote:

>[D]2k5/p7/p1p4R/8/P6P/5K2/7P/r7 w
>
>This is an actual game I came upon playing Crafty 18.3.
>
>I lost the game.
>
>What is the best move from here?
>
>I was black.. was I lost?


With Black to move I myself would play Kc8-b7. Maybe Black's King can support
its own c-pawn? I know next to nothing about the right way to play rook-endings
but I don't think your position would be that bad? However it seems it's White's
move and the computer thinks taking the pawn is a pretty good idea:

00:00  02.00  2.52  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Kb6
00:00  05.00  2.49  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Re6 Rf1+ 3.Kg4 Rg1+ 4.Kf4 Rg7 5.h5
00:00  06.00  2.34  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Rf1+ 3.Kg4 Rg1+ 4.Kh5 Rg7 5.h3 Kb6
00:01  07.00  2.37  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Rf1+ 3.Kg4 Rg1+ 4.Kh5 Rg2 5.h3 Rg7 6.Rg4
00:03  08.00  2.48  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Rg1 3.h5 Rg7 4.h4 Rf7+ 5.Rf4 Rh7 6.Kg4
00:07  09.00  2.52  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Rg1 3.h5 Rg7 4.h4 Rf7 5.Kg4 Rg7+ 6.Kf4
Kb6+
00:40  10.00  2.61  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Rh1 3.Rf4
01:47  11.00  2.80  1.Rxc6+ Kb8 2.Rc4 Ra2 3.h3 Rd2 4.h5
04:15  12.00  2.50  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4 Rh1 3.Rb4+ Kc7
24:08  13.00  2.83  1.Rxc6+ Kb7 2.Rc4

But are you sure it wasn't Black's turn to move here, like Pete says?

Not that the computer, well actually yes it's me with the Q5T personality for
Rebel Century 2.0 again, understands these kind of positions always very well;
look what could have happened after I entered some semi-random moves myself in
an engame that could have ensued from the game Yace against P.ConNers that was
reported here a few days ago:

Q5T Experimental with 4 MB hash:

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result ""]
[FEN "8/p2RP3/4r3/5pp1/2kp4/P3PK2/8/8 w - - 0 1"]

1.exd4 Re4 2.d5 Rf4+ 3.Ke2 Re4+ 4.Kd2 Rd4+ 5.Ke2 Re4+
6.Kd2 Rd4+ 7.Kc2 Re4 8.d6 Kd5 9.Rd8  *

Well, I thought, this position can't be that bad for White?

[D]3R4/p3P3/3P4/3k1pp1/4r3/P7/2K5/8 w -


00:00  05.00  1.08  9..f4 10.Kd2 g4 11.Rf8 Kxd6 12.Rxf4 Rxf4
00:00  06.00  1.14  9..f4 10.a4 g4 11.Kd2 Re3 12.Rg8 Kxd6
00:01  07.00  -0.89  9..f4 10.a4 g4 11.Kd2 Rd4 12.Ke2 Ke5 13.e8=Q+
00:04  08.00  1.68  9..f4 10.a4 g4 11.Kb2 a6 12.Kc3 Re3+ 13.Kb4
00:07  09.00  1.07  9..f4 10.a4 g4 11.Kd3 Re6 12.a5 Kc6 13.Rg8 Rxd6+ 14.Ke4
00:14  10.00  -1.11  9..f4 10.e8=Q Rxe8 11.Rxe8 Kxd6 12.Rg8 Kd5
00:32  10.01  0.00  9..Rc4+ 10.Kd3 Re4 11.Kc2 g4
00:39  10.02  0.18  9..Re6 10.Rf8 Kxd6 11.Rxf5 Kxe7 12.Rxg5 Ra6
01:06  10.03  0.29  9..Re2+ 10.Kd3 Re6 11.Rf8 Kxd6 12.Rxf5 Kxe7 13.Rxg5
01:13  10.05  0.29  9..g4
01:17  10.05  1.55  9..g4 10.Kd2 g3 11.Rg8 Kxd6 12.Rg6+
01:48  11.00  1.23  9..g4 10.Kd3 Re1 11.Rf8 Kxd6 12.Rxf5 Kxe7 13.Rg5
02:12  12.00  1.23  9..g4 10.Kd3 Re1 11.Rf8 Kxd6 12.Rxf5 Kxe7 13.Rg5
03:13  13.00  -0.73  9..g4 10.Kd3 Re1 11.e8=Q Rxe8 12.Rxe8 Kxd6
31:28  14.00  -0.43  9..g4 10.Kd3 Rd4+ 11.Ke2 Re4+ 12.Kf2 f4
39:01  15.00  -2.47  9..g4 10.Kd3 Rd4+ 11.Ke2 Re4+ 12.Kf2 a5 13.e8=Q
53:48  15.01  -2.39  9..Re2+ 10.Kd3 Re6 11.e8=Q Rxe8 12.Rxe8 Kxd6
59:25  15.05  -1.87  9..a5 10.e8=Q Rxe8 11.Rxe8 Kxd6 12.Kd3 Kd5
18:18  15.15  -1.87  9..Rc4+
26:44  15.15  0.00  9..Rc4+ 10.Kd3 Rd4+ 11.Ke3 Re4+ 12.Kf3 Rf4 13.Kg3 Rg4+
14.Kf2 Rf4 15.Ke2 Re4 16.Kf3+ Rf4 17.Kg3 Rg4+ 18.Kf2 Rf4 19.Ke2 Re4
07:20  16.00  0.00  9..Rc4+ 10.Kd3 Rd4+ 11.Ke3 Re4+ 12.Kf3 Rf4 13.Kg3 Rg4 14.Kf2
Rf4 15.Ke2 Re4 16.Kd3 Rd4 17.Ke3 Re4+ 18.Kf3 Rf4 19.Kg3 Rg4 20.Kf2 Rf4 21.Ke2
39:33  17.00  0.00  9..Rc4+ 10.Kd3 Rd4+ 11.Ke3 Re4 12.Kf3 Rf4 13.Kg3 Rg4+ 14.Kf2
Rf4 15.Ke2 Re4 16.Kf3 Rf4 17.Kg3 Rg4+ 18.Kf2 Rf4 19.Ke2 Re4
02:25  18.00  -3.18  9..Rc4+ 10.Kb3 Re4 11.e8=Q Rxe8 12.Rxe8 Kxd6
03:54  18.01  -3.13  9..a5 10.e8=Q Rxe8 11.Rxe8 Kxd6 12.Kd3 Kd5

I had never seen these long analysis lines from Rebel before, that was new! The
eighteenth ply PV was a ?-research, I believe this took more than 24 hours..
Still it shows that evaluation of passed pawns close to promotion is not easy to
do, maybe the evaluation of this position is still not accurate, I wouldn't
know. Q5T's increased King Safety eval-parameter etc. is not necessarily useful
here and may seriously unbalance the evaluation terms needed for rook-endings.

 Eelco



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