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Subject: Re: Gandalf and endgames.

Author: Ferdinand S. Mosca

Date: 22:04:32 03/18/01

Go up one level in this thread


On March 18, 2001 at 15:53:35, Dieter Buerssner wrote:

>On March 18, 2001 at 04:12:41, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>>>>> 8/8/pq1PQ1kp/6p1/8/7P/5PK1/8 b - -
>
>>Crafty18.03 under chessbase(64 mbytes hash) cannot reproduce it.
>
>I tried yet again, and I can reproduce the lines I had posted.
>
>>The score of it is 7.47 at depth 12 but 7.79 at depth 13 when the main line is
>>1...Kg7 2.Qd7+ at depth>=13
>>The difference between depthes 11 and 12 is 0.4 pawns and not 0.39 pawns.
>>
>>At depth 14 the score is +8.02 and it finished depth 14 in a few minutes on
>>pIII800 that is clearly less than your 20 minutes.
>
>I tested with 12M hash and 5M hashp. Perhaps because of the bigger transposition
>tables you used, you got even higer speedup, than the hardware difference would
>suggest. When I retried with slightly bigger hash, I have seen the next output
>after 13:46.
>
>Ok, once again, this time with 24M hash, 5M hashp, TBs disabled (to make it
>easier reproducable):
>
>Crafty v18.6
>[...]
>Black(1): st 100000
>search time set to 100000.00.
>Black(1): go
>end-game phase
>              time surplus   0.00  time limit 1666:40 (1666:40)
>         nss  depth   time  score   variation (1)
>[...]
>                7->   0.95   8.30   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4.
>                                    d7 g4 5. Qd6+ Kg7 6. d8=Q Qxh3+
>                8     1.45   8.05   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
>                                    Kh1 Kf5 <HT>
>                8->   1.48   8.05   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
>                                    Kh1 Kf5 <HT>
>                9     2.23     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
>                9->   3.90   7.66   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
>                                    Kh1 Kf5 8. Qf8+ <HT>
>               10     5.78     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
>               10->  10.99   7.27   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
>                                    Kh1 Kf5 8. Qf8+ <HT>
>               11    14.45   7.61   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
>                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
>               11->  14.68   7.61   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
>                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
>               12    45.33     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
>               12->   1:15   7.22   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
>                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
>               13     2:35     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
>               13->   3:56   6.83   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
>                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
>                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
>               14    13:46     --   1. ... Kg7
>               14    19:18   7.90   1. ... Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 g4 4.
>                                    Qxg4+ Kf6 5. Qf4+ Ke6 6. Qxh6+ Kd5
>                                    7. Qh5+ Kxd6 8. Qh6+ Kc5 9. Qxb6+ Kxb6
>                                    10. h5 a5 11. h6 a4
>               14->  19:20   7.90   1. ... Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 g4 4.
>                                    Qxg4+ Kf6 5. Qf4+ Ke6 6. Qxh6+ Kd5
>                                    7. Qh5+ Kxd6 8. Qh6+ Kc5 9. Qxb6+ Kxb6
>                                    10. h5 a5 11. h6 a4
>Black(0): ?
>              time=22:39  cpu=99%  mat=0  n=241885205  fh=88%  nps=177905
>              ext-> chk=29059370 pp=1117756 1rep=1452948 mate=44333
>              predicted=0  nodes=241885205  evals=16868856
>              endgame tablebase-> probes done=0  successful=0
>              hashing-> trans/ref=42%  pawn=8%  used=99%
>
>
>Can anybody can reproduce this? Otherwise, it would mean, that I have set up
>something totally wrong, which certainly would interest me.


Hello Dieter,

Here is the log on P3 667
using hash=24, hashp=8(as specified on crafty.rc)

Crafty v18.6

White(1): st 10000
search time set to 10000.00.
White(1): setb 8/8/pq1PQ1kp/6p1/8/7P/5PK1/8 b - -
Black(1): go
end-game phase
              clearing hash tables
              time surplus   0.00  time limit 166:40 (166:40)
         nss  depth   time  score   variation (1)
                8     0.41   8.05   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
                                    Kh1 Kf5 <HT>
                8->   0.47   8.05   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
                                    Kh1 Kf5 <HT>
                9     0.83     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
                9->   1.53   7.66   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
                                    Kh1 Kf5 8. Qf8+ <HT>
               10     2.41     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
               10->   4.93   7.27   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7.
                                    Kh1 Kf5 8. Qf8+ <HT>
               11     6.84   7.61   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
               11->   6.93   7.61   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
               12    21.45     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
               12->  35.77   7.22   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
               13     1:13     ++   1. ... Kg7!!
               13->   1:58   6.83   1. ... Kg7 2. Qe7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb1 4.
                                    d7 Qe4+ 5. Kh2 Qd4 6. Kg1 g4 7. d8=Q
                                    Qxd8 8. Qxd8 gxh3
               14     7:50     --   1. ... Kg7
               14    10:38   7.90   1. ... Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 g4 4.
                                    Qxg4+ Kf6 5. Qf4+ Ke6 6. Qxh6+ Kd5
                                    7. Qh5+ Kxd6 8. Qh6+ Kc5 9. Qxb6+ Kxb6
                                    10. h5 a5 11. h6 a4
               14->  10:54   7.90   1. ... Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 g4 4.
                                    Qxg4+ Kf6 5. Qf4+ Ke6 6. Qxh6+ Kd5
                                    7. Qh5+ Kxd6 8. Qh6+ Kc5 9. Qxb6+ Kxb6
                                    10. h5 a5 11. h6 a4
               15    15:43     --   1. ... Kg7
               15    23:00    1/3*  1. ... Kg7

I think it is similar.

There might be some differences under chessbase?

On my new setting, Yace does not even consider Qe7, after Kg7, here it is:

white ( 1): input: st 10000
white ( 1): input: setb 8/8/pq1PQ1kp/6p1/8/7P/5PK1/8 b - -
Stored 0 learned positions into hash table
black ( 1): input: go
usetime = 9999.00, mintime = 9999.00 maxtime = 9999.00 tl 9999.00 ml 0
         4   0.051  -0.20  1t  1...Kh5 {0}
         6   0.055  -0.20  1.  1...Kh5 {0}
        65   0.085  -0.26  2t  1...Kh5 2. Qg4+ Kg6 {0}
       104   0.122  -0.26  2.  1...Kh5 2. Qg4+ Kg6 {0}
      1181   0.132  -0.28  3t  1...Kh5 2. Qe2+ Kg6 3. Qe8+ Kf5 4. d7 Qc6+ {0}
      1473   0.140  -0.28  3.  1...Kh5 2. Qe2+ Kg6 3. Qe8+ Kf5 4. d7 Qc6+ {0}
      4082   0.177  -0.31  4t  1...Kh5 2. Qe2+ Kg6 3. Qe8+ Kf5 4. d7 Qc6+ 5.
                               f3 {0}
      4619   0.186  -0.31  4.  1...Kh5 2. Qe2+ Kg6 3. Qe8+ Kf5 4. d7 Qc6+ 5.
                               f3 {0}
     16496   0.393  -0.41  5t  1...Kh5 2. Qe2+ Kg6 3. Qe8+ Kf6 4. d7 Qc6+ 5.
                               f3 Qc2+ 6. Kg3 Qc7+ {0}
     18417   0.407  -0.41  5.  1...Kh5 2. Qe2+ Kg6 3. Qe8+ Kf6 4. d7 Qc6+ 5.
                               f3 Qc2+ 6. Kg3 Qc7+ {0}
     34489   0.554  -1.26  6-- 1...Kh5 2. Qf7+ Kh4 3. Qc7 Qd4 4. d7 Qe4+H 5.
                               Kh2H Qf4+H 6. Qxf4+H gxf4H {0}
     45139   0.646 -18.83  6t  1...Kh5 2. Kg3 Qb3+ 3. Qxb3 Kg6 4. d7 Kf6 5.
                               Qb6+ Kf5 6. d8=Q {-1922}
     51177   0.663 -14.03  6t+ 1...Kh7 2. Qf7+ Kh8 3. d7 Qd4 4. Qf8+ Kh7 5.
                               d8=R
     70023   0.728  -8.40  6t  1...Kh7 2. Qf7+ Kh8 3. Qc7 Qxc7 4. dxc7 a5 5.
                               c8=Q+ Kg7 {-921}
     74383   0.744  -8.39  6t+ 1...Kg7 2. Qe5+ Kg8 3. Qe8+ Kg7 4. Qc8 Kg6 5.
                               f3 {0}
     95706   0.810  -7.67  6t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 g4 5. d8=Q
                               Qxh3+ 6. Kg1 {-841}
     95706   0.817  -7.67  6.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 g4 5. d8=Q
                               Qxh3+ 6. Kg1 {-841}
    129282   0.888  -7.75  7t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 g4 5. Qd6+
                               Kg7 6. d8=Q Qxh3+ 7. Kg1 {-841}
    132416   0.903  -7.75  7.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 g4 5. Qd6+
                               Kg7 6. d8=Q Qxh3+ 7. Kg1 {-841}
    200422   1.082  -7.80  8t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 g4 5. Qd6+
                               Kg7 6. Qe7+ Kg6 7. Qe4+ Kf7 8. d8=Q Qxh3+ 9.
                               Kg1 {-841}
    204735   1.104  -7.80  8.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 g4 5. Qd6+
                               Kg7 6. Qe7+ Kg6 7. Qe4+ Kf7 8. d8=Q Qxh3+ 9.
                               Kg1 {-841}
    449437   1.772  -7.89  9t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 Qd5+ 5.
                               Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7. Kh1 {-841}
    460849   1.822  -7.89  9.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 Qd5+ 5.
                               Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=Q Qxf2+ 7. Kh1 {-841}
   1447447   4.673  -7.49 10++ 1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. Qc7 Qb3 4. d7 Qd5+ 5.
                               Kh2 Qd4 6. d8=R Qxf2+ 7. Kh1 {-340}
   5245364  17.283  -0.53 10t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 a5 4. hxg5 Kxg5 5.
                               Qg7+ Kh5 6. f3 Qb4 7. d7 Qh4 {0}
   5323482  17.582  -0.53 10.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 a5 4. hxg5 Kxg5 5.
                               Qg7+ Kh5 6. f3 Qb4 7. d7 Qh4 {0}
   8828718  28.760  -0.55 11t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 Qd4 4. Qe6+ Qf6 5.
                               Qe8+ Kg7 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. f3 Qc2+ 8. Kg3 gxh4+ 9.
                               Kxh4 Qf2+ 10. Kg4 Qg2+ 11. Kf4 {0}
   8927532  29.111  -0.55 11.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 Qd4 4. Qe6+ Qf6 5.
                               Qe8+ Kg7 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. f3 Qc2+ 8. Kg3 gxh4+ 9.
                               Kxh4 Qf2+ 10. Kg4 Qg2+ 11. Kf4 {0}
  11733688  38.184  -0.95 12-- 1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 Qd4 4. h5+ Kxh5 5.
                               Qe8+ Kh4 6. Qe6 Kh5 7. d7 a5 8. Qe8+ Kh4 9.
                               d8=Q Qd7 {-841}
  17490192  55.875  -1.73 12t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kf6 5.
                               d7 Qc6+ 6. Kh2 Qc7+ 7. Kh3 Qc3+ 8. Kxh4 Qc4+ 9.
                               Kg3 Qc7+ 10. f4 Qc3+ 11. Kg4 h5+ 12. Kxh5 {-80}
  17623480  56.330  -1.73 12.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kf6 5.
                               d7 Qc6+ 6. Kh2 Qc7+ 7. Kh3 Qc3+ 8. Kxh4 Qc4+ 9.
                               Kg3 Qc7+ 10. f4 Qc3+ 11. Kg4 h5+ 12. Kxh5 {-80}
  20261962  1:04.4  -2.13 13-- 1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kf6 5.
                               d7 Qc6+ 6. Kh2 Qc7+ 7. Kh3 Qc3+ 8. Kxh4 Qc4+ 9.
                               Kg3 Kf5 10. d8=Q a5 {-921}
  32293344  2:04.8  -2.76 13t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kg7 5.
                               Qe7+ Kh8 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. Kh2 Qc7+ 8. Kh3 Qc3+ 9.
                               Qe3 Qf6 10. Qe8+ Kh7 11. d8=R Qxf2 {-260}
  32755120  2:09.4  -2.76 13.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kg7 5.
                               Qe7+ Kh8 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. Kh2 Qc7+ 8. Kh3 Qc3+ 9.
                               Qe3 Qf6 10. Qe8+ Kh7 11. d8=R Qxf2 {-260}
  39530451  2:34.3  -3.16 14-- 1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kg7 5.
                               Qe7+ Kh8 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. Kh2 Qc7+ 8. Kh3 Qc3+ 9.
                               Qe3 Qf6 10. Qe8+ Kg7 11. d8=Q a5 {-841}
  66395034  3:50.9  -2.86 14t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kg7 5.
                               Qe7+ Kh8 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. Kh2 Qc7+ 8. Kh3 Qc3+ 9.
                               Qe3 Qf6 10. Qe8+ Kh7 11. d8=R Qxf2 12. Qg8#
                               {-260}
  67824525  3:55.3  -2.86 14.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kg7 5.
                               Qe7+ Kh8 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. Kh2 Qc7+ 8. Kh3 Qc3+ 9.
                               Qe3 Qf6 10. Qe8+ Kh7 11. d8=R Qxf2 12. Qg8#
                               {-260}
  82149397  4:38.3  -3.26 15-- 1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kg7 5.
                               Qe7+ Kh8 6. d7 Qc6+ 7. Kh2 Qc7+ 8. Kh3 a5
 174048747  9:09.6  -7.84 15t  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kf6 5.
                               Qe7+ Kf5 6. Qf7+ Ke5 7. d7 Kd4 8. Qe7 Qc6+ 9.
                               Kh2 Qc7+ 10. Kh3 Kc3 11. Qf6+ Kb3 12. d8=Q Qxd8
                               13. Qxd8 {HT} {-841}
 177484978  9:20.1  -7.84 15.  1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kf6 5.
                               Qe7+ Kf5 6. Qf7+ Ke5 7. d7 Kd4 8. Qe7 Qc6+ 9.
                               Kh2 Qc7+ 10. Kh3 Kc3 11. Qf6+ Kb3 12. d8=Q Qxd8
                               13. Qxd8 {HT} {-841}
 209641268 10:54.6  -7.84 15f. 1...Kg7 2. Qd7+ Kg6 3. h4 gxh4 4. Qe8+ Kf6 5.
                               Qe7+ Kf5 6. Qf7+ Ke5 7. d7 Kd4 8. Qe7 Qc6+ 9.
                               Kh2 Qc7+ 10. Kh3 Kc3 11. Qf6+ Kb3 12. d8=Q Qxd8
                               13. Qxd8 {-841}
209641268 Nodes, 15.72% Leavenodes, 320223 Nodes/sec
106309315 eval, 48.50% score, 1140706406 genmoves, 3.69% captures le 270/333
ext: pawn 1148992, rcp 161238, chk 23467042, repchk 5350954, null 87788, prune
7194541
htable: 142913525 store, 0 rejected, 207666159 probe, 42.9% f/p, 62.3% f/s
entries 2666664 age 1 renew 0
egtb probes 2409, found 753

The changes are:
icheck 0.6
irepcheck 1.0

My idea at first is to discourage Yace from making some checks, Yace is very
sensitive to checks, especially at endings, and I raise the value of irepcheck
on the idea that there is a serious bussiness when there is repetition of check.

If you can I need some explanation on extension parameters.

BTW a position from a game played by Yace:

Yace 0.99.09 (Paderborn) - LG2000v3(1-0), G10
[D]8/5k2/2p5/2Pq4/5PpP/4Q1K1/8/8 w - - 0 1
solution fastest to see f5

On a new setting Yace sees f5 quickly than the default.
12.860   1.44 12t+ (new setting)
2:35.8   1.87 13++ (default)

This is also the setting where Yace tried not to like Rc3 from my other post.

Currently I have run some test games around this setting.
It won against LG2000v3 at G15 in a 10 game match, I'll have to examine yet
those games.

Regards,
Dinan


>
>>I can add that Qe7+ is also an easy win for white when the best line includes a
>>repetition
>>1.Qe7+ Kg6 2.Qe6+ Kg7 3.Qd7+
>
>Sure. But I think, it is quite unlikely, that a chess engine will show a main
>line starting like this.
>
>Regards,
>Dieter



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