Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 00:05:15 03/27/01
Go up one level in this thread
On March 27, 2001 at 03:03:05, Ed Schröder wrote: >On March 27, 2001 at 02:21:40, Lex Loep wrote: > >>On March 26, 2001 at 17:10:56, Ed Schröder wrote: >> >>>On March 26, 2001 at 13:56:06, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>Hello People, >>>> >>>>Why design a protocol for auto232 player? >>>> >>>>That is the basic question. >>>> >>>>My interpretation is that this protocol needs to >>>>be followed to play games at the auto232 player then. >>>> >>>>The protocol as designed by Chrilly and Stefan is >>>>having a number of commands. >>>> >>>>The most important is that one is called 'slave' and the >>>>other is 'master'. Now being master says shit about whether >>>>you play better chess, but it says something about what >>>>your function is within the protocol. >>>> >>>>If you are master, then your function is to start the game >>>>and afterwards ship your opponent the command to save the game. >>>> >>>>Let's first discuss the chesspartner interface which is used for >>>>Gambit Tiger. Gambit Tiger is giving very little problems on the >>>>auto232 player, let's start mentionning that. It doesn't have >>>>big demands to play a game. It's happy very soon. No need to >>>>have a machine with zillions of megabytes of RAM, no need to >>>>have 7.5 GB of EGTBs on the harddisk before it start playing. >>>> >>>>It plays no problems there. >>>> >>>>however, WHY does it have an UNMARKED checkbox by default >>>>to let the other guy save the game when Tiger is Master. >>>> >>>>This means the opponent is by default NOT ALLOWED to save the >>>>game. >>>> >>>>This is very unfair behaviour. >>>> >>>>It's like playing a grandmaster for the first time, then >>>>ship the grandmaster to a clinic. They operate him and he has >>>>lost all memories about the game! >>>> >>>>Of course you can avoid this by difficult programming. So saving >>>>the game during the game already. Learning during the game etcetera. >>>> >>>>BUT WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PROTOCOL THEN? >>>> >>>>In my opinion it is UNFAIR to by default leave this checkbox unmarked. >>>> >>>>In the default settings it must be marked! >>> >>> >>>It is no problem to set the option "marked" as default. I will forward >>>the topic to Lex. Maybe he has his reasons, I don't know. >>> >> >>The options you set are remembered from session to session, thus >>once you have set the option on, it stays that way as default. >> >>Lex >Yes, that is true. >But there are some programs that rely on "learning" during "save >game" and so I think it is justified to set "save opponent game" >to "on" as default setting which was the original complaint of >Vincent. Correction! Of course such a change should not disturb the quality and stability of auto232 in general. That decision is up to you. Ed > > >>>One plausible reason is that people don't have an interest at all to >>>have the games saved twice. Of course you as a programmer want to have >>>the games saved in your own format. >>> >>>But then chess programmers are not in the majority concerning the volume >>>of end-users who only care about a wellknown format such as having the >>>games in PGN. >>> >>>So I think you are in the minority here, buy hey the option is there >>>and that is the main important thing. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The same applies to chessbase products but even worse. >>>> >>>>First it is very worried about having the right openings book to >>>>auto232 play. Secondly it wanted more hashtables and at least a >>>>machine with 128mb RAM. Further it wants all EGTBs installed on harddisk. >>>> >>>>Only after all those criteria are met, then finally fritz wants to >>>>auto232 play. >>>> >>>>The first box you see then it already has by DEFAULT UNMARKED a markbox >>>>which will ship a 'save game' command to the opponent after the game. >>>> >>>>This is pretty unfair! >>>> >>>>So it wants itself the BEST POSSIBLE conditions, like at least 128mb RAM, >>>>a lot of EGTB installed. Hundreds of megabytes of harddisk for a big >>>>openingsbook etcetera. All those criteria it wants in order to not even >>>>by default give the opponent a 'save game' command after the game, >>>>DESPITE THAT THIS IS THE PROTOCOL! >>>> >>>>Now people can legally complain that their protocol looks like Chrilly/Stefans >>>>protocol, but that it is not the same, and that the only differences >>>>are that by default chessbase ships some extra commands in order to >>>>recognize whether on the other side is also a chessbase program and that >>>>the other thing is to by default leave the 'save game' for the opponent >>>>is unmarked. >>>> >>>>all legal crap. JUST GIVE THE SAVE GAME COMMAND by default. >>>> >>>>That chessbase wants their own main product to win the auto232 matches >>>>somehow by shipping commands to other chessbase interfaces to get certain >>>>things done, that is completely their own responsibility and decision. >>>>Quite logical decision actually. I would want Fritz to win too if it was >>>>my main product. I'm not here to speak for how chessbase must run their >>>>company. That is their own business. >>>> >>>>But i'm here for those who want a fair match between non-chessbase products >>>>and a chessbase product, as well as chesspartner-tiger, >>>>which in future also is going to lose from Fritz as i understood. >>>> >>>>I understand that programs not learning are greatly influenced by >>>>this default unmark trick. >>>> >>>>You can produce your own PGNs and only those can get interpreted, whereas >>>>opponent is NOT allowed to show as slave the pgn, except if that >>>>programmer works around this. >>>> >>>>Much easier as everyone doing a hell of a lot of effort is simply to >>>>give everyone that 'save game' command.
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