Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 07:41:14 03/27/01
Go up one level in this thread
On March 27, 2001 at 08:14:15, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On March 27, 2001 at 00:06:53, Ed Schröder wrote: > >Let's try again Ed. > >If you design a window with a checkbox which by default is >unmarked mentionning in a very very small font > "kill me if this checkbox is unchecked". > >Then majority of users will click Ok and risk getting >killed a second later. Actually they take the risk without >wanting. > >People always just click 'ok'. They don't read what is on the >screen. Only a small group of hackers like you and me and some other >CCC readers are reading the screen very carefully. Your example is not real and is spelled exaggerating. Ed >>On March 26, 2001 at 21:39:57, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On March 26, 2001 at 17:10:56, Ed Schröder wrote: >>> >>>>On March 26, 2001 at 13:56:06, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hello People, >>>>> >>>>>Why design a protocol for auto232 player? >>>>> >>>>>That is the basic question. >>>>> >>>>>My interpretation is that this protocol needs to >>>>>be followed to play games at the auto232 player then. >>>>> >>>>>The protocol as designed by Chrilly and Stefan is >>>>>having a number of commands. >>>>> >>>>>The most important is that one is called 'slave' and the >>>>>other is 'master'. Now being master says shit about whether >>>>>you play better chess, but it says something about what >>>>>your function is within the protocol. >>>>> >>>>>If you are master, then your function is to start the game >>>>>and afterwards ship your opponent the command to save the game. >>>>> >>>>>Let's first discuss the chesspartner interface which is used for >>>>>Gambit Tiger. Gambit Tiger is giving very little problems on the >>>>>auto232 player, let's start mentionning that. It doesn't have >>>>>big demands to play a game. It's happy very soon. No need to >>>>>have a machine with zillions of megabytes of RAM, no need to >>>>>have 7.5 GB of EGTBs on the harddisk before it start playing. >>>>> >>>>>It plays no problems there. >>>>> >>>>>however, WHY does it have an UNMARKED checkbox by default >>>>>to let the other guy save the game when Tiger is Master. >>>>> >>>>>This means the opponent is by default NOT ALLOWED to save the >>>>>game. >>>>> >>>>>This is very unfair behaviour. >>>>> >>>>>It's like playing a grandmaster for the first time, then >>>>>ship the grandmaster to a clinic. They operate him and he has >>>>>lost all memories about the game! >>>>> >>>>>Of course you can avoid this by difficult programming. So saving >>>>>the game during the game already. Learning during the game etcetera. >>>>> >>>>>BUT WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PROTOCOL THEN? >>>>> >>>>>In my opinion it is UNFAIR to by default leave this checkbox unmarked. >>>>> >>>>>In the default settings it must be marked! >>>> >>>> >>>>It is no problem to set the option "marked" as default. I will forward >>>>the topic to Lex. Maybe he has his reasons, I don't know. >>> >>>Thanks, that's what i wanted to hear! >>> >>>>One plausible reason is that people don't have an interest at all to >>>>have the games saved twice. Of course you as a programmer want to have >>>>the games saved in your own format. >> >> >>Hi Vincent, >> >>>People WANT it saved twice, >> >>No. >> >>Not the majority. >> >>Ask the SSDF if they use the "save opponent game" box. I am pretty sure >>they do not do that. >> >>You are a programmer Vincent not a consumer and therefore you have other >>wishes and demands. >> >> >> >>>because of interpretation problem. >>>If you are the only one who is allowed to save it, and we know >>>for example Rebel-DOS autoplayer arbitrated based upon +5 things, >>>then confusion can happen about what the result it. >> >>All described in the manual. >> >>Secondly you can turn it off in case you dislike it. >> >>The system is there because I am not interested in double games, clearly >>won/lost positions, clear draw positions that are continued for 60-100 >>needless moves. The system is responsible that it will speed-up auto232 >>matches with 200-300%. >> >>If you dislike it, turn it off. >> >> >> >>>The result shown by the auto232 players is usually not the objective >>>results. If however both sides agree that a match ended in a certain >>>score, then there are little things that need to get checked. >> >>You will have to go through all the games manually anyway as in no >>autoplayer platform you can fully rely on the match score given by >>the computer. >> >> >> >>>A double saving of the games is therefore a cool thing! >> >>For a programmer yes :) >> >>I think that most auto232 lovers do not use the option much. >> >> >> >> >>>>But then chess programmers are not in the majority concerning the volume >>>>of end-users who only care about a wellknown format such as having the >>>>games in PGN. >>> >>>I'm concerned in fair competition. >> >>I know! >> >>And so do I. >> >> >> >>>>So I think you are in the minority here, buy hey the option is there >>>>and that is the main important thing. >>> >>>I think i'm in the majority Ed. Fair competition. Just letting one side >>>save the games is asking for unfair competition. Interpretation of the >>>facts rather. >> >>I don't think it is fair to say that. The option is there, and before you >>start using software better have a good look what the software is offering >>you and don't label something as unfair competition because you have not >>watched the options of the autoplayer software carefully. The option you >>were looking for is right before your eyes on the (auto232) screen. >> >> >> >>>apart from that, the one who was hit hardest in past by not saving >>>games was... ...rebel. >> >>You have worked yourself with the provided NONAME driver of the auto232 >>package. You should be an expert concerning its quirks. >> >> >>>Weird that Lex applied the same thing which i found so unfair that it >>>happened to you! >> >>Sure, life is one big conspiracy :) >> >>Ed >> >> >> >> >>>>>The same applies to chessbase products but even worse. >>>>> >>>>>First it is very worried about having the right openings book to >>>>>auto232 play. Secondly it wanted more hashtables and at least a >>>>>machine with 128mb RAM. Further it wants all EGTBs installed on harddisk. >>>>> >>>>>Only after all those criteria are met, then finally fritz wants to >>>>>auto232 play. >>>>> >>>>>The first box you see then it already has by DEFAULT UNMARKED a markbox >>>>>which will ship a 'save game' command to the opponent after the game. >>>>> >>>>>This is pretty unfair! >>>>> >>>>>So it wants itself the BEST POSSIBLE conditions, like at least 128mb RAM, >>>>>a lot of EGTB installed. Hundreds of megabytes of harddisk for a big >>>>>openingsbook etcetera. All those criteria it wants in order to not even >>>>>by default give the opponent a 'save game' command after the game, >>>>>DESPITE THAT THIS IS THE PROTOCOL! >>>>> >>>>>Now people can legally complain that their protocol looks like Chrilly/Stefans >>>>>protocol, but that it is not the same, and that the only differences >>>>>are that by default chessbase ships some extra commands in order to >>>>>recognize whether on the other side is also a chessbase program and that >>>>>the other thing is to by default leave the 'save game' for the opponent >>>>>is unmarked. >>>>> >>>>>all legal crap. JUST GIVE THE SAVE GAME COMMAND by default. >>>>> >>>>>That chessbase wants their own main product to win the auto232 matches >>>>>somehow by shipping commands to other chessbase interfaces to get certain >>>>>things done, that is completely their own responsibility and decision. >>>>>Quite logical decision actually. I would want Fritz to win too if it was >>>>>my main product. I'm not here to speak for how chessbase must run their >>>>>company. That is their own business. >>>>> >>>>>But i'm here for those who want a fair match between non-chessbase products >>>>>and a chessbase product, as well as chesspartner-tiger, >>>>>which in future also is going to lose from Fritz as i understood. >>>>> >>>>>I understand that programs not learning are greatly influenced by >>>>>this default unmark trick. >>>>> >>>>>You can produce your own PGNs and only those can get interpreted, whereas >>>>>opponent is NOT allowed to show as slave the pgn, except if that >>>>>programmer works around this. >>>>> >>>>>Much easier as everyone doing a hell of a lot of effort is simply to >>>>>give everyone that 'save game' command.
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.