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Subject: Re: KBNKP [a miniature study,mate in 34]

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 08:30:38 03/30/01

Go up one level in this thread


On March 30, 2001 at 03:19:53, Uri Blass wrote:

>On March 30, 2001 at 01:43:57, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On March 29, 2001 at 14:21:14, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On March 29, 2001 at 14:08:06, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 29, 2001 at 08:50:14, José Antônio Fabiano Mendes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  An interesting miniature by a Russian composer(sorry,I can't remember
>>>>>  his name) I came across the other day:
>>>>>  [D]2N5/8/8/8/7p/8/7B/4K2k w
>>>>>     The _only_ winning move is 1.Bb8!! [mate in 34]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do I have a bug?
>>>>
>>>>Chess Tiger 14.0 and Gambit Tiger 2.0 both announce mate in 28 (that means they
>>>>think it is a mate in 29 starting from your position).
>>>>
>>>>The line is:
>>>>
>>>>00:32:36.2	 Mate in 28	20	354603928	Bb8 Kg2 Ne7 h3 Bh2 Kf3 Ng6 Kg4 Kf2 Kf5 Nf4
>>>>Ke4 Kg3 Kd4 Kxh3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I do not have all the tablebases installed, and it is why Tiger needed half an
>>>>hour on my K6-2 450 to find the mate (24Mb hash).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Christophe
>>>
>>>
>>>Your PV is definitely wrong.  The move Ng6 above is not optimal.  Kd2 is mate in
>>>30, after Ng6 it is mate in 31.  Kf2 after Kg4 is also non-optimal and takes you
>>>back to a mate in 31 for the 3rd time.  After Kxh3 above it is a mate in 28 for
>>>white from that point forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>However, it is possible this is an artifact of not having the right databases.
>>>ie the P might turn into a knight in some variations and give check, rather than
>>>just into a Q which might be worse.
>>>
>>>with all 5 piece files I get mate in 34 as I posted in a different post.
>>
>>
>>OK, thanks.
>>
>>Indeed, I do not have all 5 men TBs installed. I have just installed the first
>>CD (1/2) of the Endgame Turbo product from ChessBase.
>>
>>Sarah has posted in another message that Tiger announces instantly a mate in 34
>>with all TBs installed. No surprise as the root position has 5 pieces. :)
>>
>>
>>    Christophe
>
>It is clear that there something is wrong here.
>
>There are two possibilities
>
>a)Tablebases are right and Tiger is wrong.
>b)Tiger is right and tablebases are wrong.
>
>I have nothing against Tiger but For some reason I guess that a is correct.
>
>Playing a game between Tiger as white and Tiger with all the relevant tablebases
>with black can give us more information.
>
>Uri


One problem is promotions.  If he doesn't have a promotion table for that
pawn, then the search may well find positions where it can force a promotion
at the right instant which _seems_ to avoid getting mated.  If it had the
right table, it would see that the promotion doesn't do a thing to avoid
the mate, actually.

That would be my guess.  however, announcing a _shorter_ mate than 34 is
odd.  I never see "shorter" mates announced.  I often see longer than expected
mate announcements because the program simply can't see the most efficient path
to a tablebase mate all the time.

So I'm with you to an extent here.  If it is a mate in 34, and a program
says mate in 30, that would be cause for concern.  It might not be a problem,
due to the promotion stuff, but it is strange.



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