Author: Bruce Moreland
Date: 12:31:28 04/04/98
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On April 04, 1998 at 13:48:00, Thorsten Czub wrote: >>This is an example of why I'm a little concerned about this group. >> >>I don't think anyone should be saying this kind of thing in here. This >>goes beyond criticiism of the objectivity of a magazine, it is a pretty >>bad personal attack on some real people. > >There is no "objectivity of a magazine". Your words are a bubble with no >content. Show me ONE magazine that has objectivity. This is not about the objectivity of CSS or Time Magazine or anything. >A pretty bad personal attack against WHOM ? >Whom personal ? You snipped what I quoted, so here it is again: On April 04, 1998 at 07:41:21, Thorsten Czub wrote: >Computer Schach and Spiele is made from cheaters for stupid reader. >Thats their manifest. They use methods to stand this and they have ever >done. [end of quote] If I say, "The author of program X is an ass", is this any less a personal attack than if I say "Person Y (the author of program X) is an ass"? Both are obvious personal attacks. You didn't bring the names up but it is obvious who you mean. CSS is small enough that it is hard to say something like this without also saying it about the people who make up the identity of CSS. These kind of comments, expressed in here, in this manner, go against the charter of this group. >>When Rolf make rude comments about you and Chris, Chris went nuts and >>had him booted out of here, even though the comments weren't made here. > >I don't think that rolf was thrown out because he made rude comments on >me or chris. He was thrown out because he made rude comments about ccc. >Rolf can do any comment about me as often as he wants. Remember this comment about Rolf making rude comments about CCC for later, I will refer to it again. >>But here is the same kind of attack against someone who has no power >>here, and nothing is done, right? > >Who ? Against whom Bruce ? Don't pretend to not know what I am talking about. This is a standard Thorsten topic -- your feud with Frederick Friedel and CSS. >>What is the story with CCC? >> >>Are founders allowed to attack anyone they choose, or does this >>privilege only exist if they make token apologies afterward? > >Where is my apology ? >I am not privileged more than you. >There is no difference in the amount of garbage somebody is allowed to >say between a founder and a NON-founder. Your statement that >differenciates and relates me as a FOUNDER to show or postulate that i >am more privileged than anybody else is a splitting question. The >intension of such a splitting rethorics is to avoke that a person A has >more rights than other persons NON-A. The reason to relate is to find >somewhere in your psychy. Speaking of personal, this is getting kind of personal. >If you want to say that I have written bullshit than do it. >But do it and not doing mathematics with words and relating things >instead of saying it STRAIGHT. > >> Do they >>have to make sure to attack unpopular people? > >What is free speech Bruce ? OK, now I would like to juxtapose this against your comment about why Rolf was kicked out of here. First, you are wrong about why he was kicked out of here. He wasn't kicked out for attacking CCC, he was kicked out for saying things that offended Chris, although Chris has said that those things were said about you. But assume I give you this point, and allow the argument that he was kicked out for saying bad things about CCC. Just look at this comment about free speech. You have free speech to say that the people who run CSS are cheaters, but Rolf doesn't have free speech to say what he wants? How are the two any different, other than that one personal attacker is in a position to be able to pull the plug on the other one. Please provide a list of subjects I am not allowed to criticize. Are the CCC founders on record that people will be thrown out of there for making "rude comments about CCC", regardless of where they make them? >Am I allowed to tell in public that I believe that a magazine is >betraying their readers ? Is this statement allowed ? Or is it not >protected under the free-speech law ? >Is it a personal attack ? >You are the democrat Bruce...:-) I think it goes beyond this. This whole subject is one your personal hot buttons. You have problems with Fritz, CSS, and Frederick Friedel, and this leads to some very passionate comments. If you can't see this, then I am sure that you are the only one who can't. >> If I feel like randomly >>attacking someone, will I be kicked out, or will I be fine as long as I >>attack someone who's unpopular? > >My experience with Computer Schach and Spiele has nothing to do with >people beeing unpopular. I have made my own private experience with a >magazine you have only read (sometimes). >You were never - as far as I remember - a writer for Computer Schach and >Spiele. >I was. Frankly, I don't care at all about personal grudges that you've managed to accumulate over the years. My hope is that you would keep these out of CCC, and out of r.g.c.c. for that matter. >So you cannot avoke that my attacks against people I have made >bad experiences are easy attacks against unpopular people. >These people are unpopular because for whatever reasons - and I am not >in charge for this. It is their life. I do only talk about my own >experience. OK Thorsten. Let's say that I've had a bad experience with Ed Schroeder (I haven't). How long do you think I'd last here if I started saying that Schroeder BV was run by "cheaters"? I wouldn't last very long, and I shouldn't. Why should it be any different if people choose a different target? Is CSS an official "fair game" target? What other companies am I allowed to say are run by cheaters? Can I say that ICD is run by cheaters (it is not)? Can I say that Gambitsoft is run by cheaters (it is not)? It'd be interesting to hear the conversation between Friedel and his lawyer, when he askes if he should sue Steven Schwartz for sponsoring a BBS and putting someone in charge of it who he probably considers is libelling him. >>Maybe you guys could post a list of people that it is not necessary to >>be civil to. >> >>bruce > >Would you like to be ON the list or OFF the list ?! :-) This is a serious issue. It has to do with whether anyone has the right to vent their personal grudges here, and since you are in the founders group, whether certain individuals might have more right to do this than others. I think that nobody should do this here, and that everyone who does it should be held to the same standard. I would like the CCC founders to go on record about this. bruce
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