Author: Thorsten Czub
Date: 15:17:27 04/04/98
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>You snipped what I quoted, so here it is again: > >On April 04, 1998 at 07:41:21, Thorsten Czub wrote: > >>Computer Schach and Spiele is made from cheaters for stupid reader. >>Thats their manifest. They use methods to stand this and they have ever >>done. >[end of quote] This is an opinion Bruce. It is not forbidden - not in germany - to have opinions of all kind. I can e.g. say : Soldiers are murderers ! without insulting or offending soldiers. German court has said that the right of free speech has a higher value than the dignity of soldiers. I don't know how american court judges about statement of opinions. Also I don't know how you think about them. >If I say, "The author of program X is an ass", is this any less a >personal attack than if I say "Person Y (the author of program X) is an >ass"? I have never said that any programmer is an ass. Also not in brackets. I don't see what you are talking about. >Both are obvious personal attacks. You didn't bring the names up but it >is obvious who you mean. Wrong. I don't see any personal nor attack in any way in my statements. I have not offended Dieter or Frederic. In my opinion you mix up statement of opinons with personal attacks. I will give an exampel. Please accept that this example is NOT my opinion ! When I say : Programmers are often crazy people ! Than this is an opinion. When I say: Programmers, mainly coming from US, are crazy people! Than this is also an opinon, although you could feel offended by it, or ? When I say: Bruce is an asshole and he is crazy. THIS is a personal attack and in germany you can go into court and fight against me because I have said this. I don't see why you mix this up. In my opionion it is obvious to differenciate. >CSS is small enough that it is hard to say something like this without >also saying it about the people who make up the identity of CSS. Please Bruce, what do you know about CSS ? How many years you are reading it ? And - are you able to read it although it is written in german ? Do you know the Publishers ? The writers ? Shallow or in person ? For how long ? One year ? 2 ?? 3 ? I know them - for many years. And I know the articles and the rest by heart. Better then them. You don't know whom I am talking about and what I mean bruce. All you know about CSS is, that their was a picture on the backside of one edition with you winning the blitz title , in short trousers. Not to offend you they snipped away the short-trousers. Because it was November and Paris was cold. So they snipped it away. Nice guys, aren't they ? >These kind of comments, expressed in here, in this manner, go against >the charter of this group. If you think so you should throw me out Bruce ! Thats only logically, isn't it ?! >OK, now I would like to juxtapose this against your comment about why >Rolf was kicked out of here. Juxtapose ?? I have to look up this word ! I hope Oxford Dictionary knows this word.... Ah - place side by side !! What were the parts of my comments you want to JUXTAPOSE ? >First, you are wrong about why he was kicked out of here. He wasn't >kicked out for attacking CCC, he was kicked out for saying things that >offended Chris, although Chris has said that those things were said >about you. ???? I don't understand this sentence ? I don't think that you remember the throw out of Rolf accurate. I was somehow involved in the email group that was in charge of this, and I do remember it different. I don't know what you are talking about. >But assume I give you this point, and allow the argument that he was >kicked out for saying bad things about CCC. > >Just look at this comment about free speech. You have free speech to >say that the people who run CSS are cheaters, but Rolf doesn't have free >speech to say what he wants? How are the two any different, other than >that one personal attacker is in a position to be able to pull the plug >on the other one. Because what I say is a common sense in germany ! The only thing you don't know is: that they have cheated very often. It is not known to you because you don't read this magazine. When I say : soldiers are murderers than the boolean value/sense of this sentence is TRUE ! When I say the chess is a game of 2 players. Than this is also true. As I have mentioned earlier I have not attacked anybody in the part you quote. You cannot attack people saying that JFK was president of the united states, because THIS IS TRUE. >Please provide a list of subjects I am not allowed to criticize. Are >the CCC founders on record that people will be thrown out of there for >making "rude comments about CCC", regardless of where they make them? YOU can say whatever you want Bruce. >I think it goes beyond this. This whole subject is one your personal >hot buttons. Wrong. >You have problems with Fritz, CSS, and Frederick Friedel, I don't have problems with them. I don't like what they do. This is very different. I can sit with fred in one room without problems. He was in Aegon, and we had a nice talk together with Chris sitting next to us. He was in Paris too. And we had nice arrangements connecting him to the Eierbaron. Dieter was also there. 1986 in cologne it was exactly the same situation. Dieter and Fred were there too. The only guy not beeing there was you. How do you know that I have a problem with them ? In fact I have a problem to reproduce the results of the ChessBase team. I cannot follow their statements. Nor their results. >and this leads to some very passionate comments. If you can't see this, >then I am sure that you are the only one who can't. In fact you have prejudices. You have a certain image. You don't know the background or the people involved in it very good and therefore you build an image that comes not very near to the roots. I would call this prejudice my dear friend. If we (Dieter, Fred, You, me) would know each other together for years and share the same things for years, THAN i would call your comments or ideas about this topic NOT prejudiced and NOT shallow. Instead shooting into the dark it would have been better to make up your homework and make yourself confortable with some data about this "problem". >Frankly, I don't care at all about personal grudges that you've managed >to accumulate over the years. My hope is that you would keep these out >of CCC, and out of r.g.c.c. for that matter. As I said, when I am criticising Microsoft I don't personal attack Bill Gates. If I say Bill Gates is an asshole and this would be the microsoft-news-group I would maybe thrown out, or ? >OK Thorsten. Let's say that I've had a bad experience with Ed Schroeder >(I haven't). How long do you think I'd last here if I started saying >that Schroeder BV was run by "cheaters"? I don't know, try it out !! :-) >I wouldn't last very long, and I shouldn't. if you believe so... I have a different opinion Bruce. >Why should it be any different if people choose a different target? Is >CSS an official "fair game" target? What other companies am I allowed >to say are run by cheaters? Can I say that ICD is run by cheaters (it >is not)? Can I say that Gambitsoft is run by cheaters (it is not)? Computer schach and spiele is a magazin that publishes articles. They very often publish things that are not true. One could think this is a mistake. In fact it isn't. It is willingly misprinted. The articles in it are changed, the author is not informed if the publishers INSERT a little passage or snippes some parts. The reader letters are selected and the target of it is to damage all companies that are NOT chessBase and to help this company making money. All this done behind the facade that they do journalism when they - in fact - do advertising. This is common sense in germany to all people NOT only reading it ONCE or twice or not able to speak the german language enough to read it fluently, like you do. >It'd be interesting to hear the conversation between Friedel and his >lawyer, when he askes if he should sue Steven Schwartz for sponsoring a >BBS and putting someone in charge of it who he probably considers is >libelling him. Why should Fred sue somebody when he knows the other guy says the truth ? I mean: how can he proof that I am wrong when he knows I am right ? He would have to cheat, or ? :-) >This is a serious issue. As always when discussing with you !! :-) (I have found out first time in paderborn 1995 when I had the pleasure to help hiarcs to be operated against ferret because the hiarcs operator was, for whatever reason, not there. This was the first time I found out about how serious it is to be in one room with you. I think Peter has found out the same in Paris 1997. Maybe we should begin a BRUCE-X-file !! :-)) >It has to do with whether anyone has the right >to vent their personal grudges here, and since you are in the founders >group, whether certain individuals might have more right to do this than >others. All animals are equal Bruce ! :-) >I think that nobody should do this here, and that everyone who does it >should be held to the same standard. > >I would like the CCC founders to go on record about this. > >bruce Good idea ! I wish you all the best !! Soldiers are murderers , btw !! :-)
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