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Subject: Re: Is this appropriate for this group?

Author: Thorsten Czub

Date: 06:11:19 04/05/98

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>The point here is not free speech.  There are things that you can get in
>trouble for saying here.  If you go after someone personally, you should
>get in trouble.  If you wander off on some long off-topic nonsense you
>should get in trouble.
>
>If you want do any of this in r.g.c.c., that is unpleasant but allowed,
>since that is how r.g.c.c. is defined.
>
>I thought CCC was supposed to work differently.
>
>I thought the whole point of CCC was to exclude certain topics (off
>topic stuff) and certain modes of argument (insults, accusations,
>ranting, etc.).
>
>I don't care if your impression of whoever it was you were talking about
>is true or false.  This place is a forum for discussion, not a place to
>put people on trial or to nurse permanent grudges.
>
>That's my opinion.
>
>bruce

Ok -
whenever I discuss with you (or also other guys from US) I have found
out that we have different WAYS and VALUES how to discuss.
IMO this is a cultural problem.
You cannot stand heated discussions !
Whenever this happens you feel personal offended or you shoot with heavy
weapons back although the other side has NOT thought to attack you or
not thought to kill you. All the other side did was: told an opinion.
My experience with guys from other (european-)countries is different.
We can discuss very heated and very (in your point of view) uncivilized
without beeing enemies or hate each other AFTERWARDS.
I don't know WHY this is. I can only register that IT IS !

I have no idea WHY it isn't possible to discuss abstract or even
concrete matters with americans WITHOUT this problem.
Maybe there are cultural problems or differences that produce these
complications.

We seem to have different ranges concerning personal attack-values.
In europe children and adults learn to attack or to discuss other people
with WORDS and NOT with weapons or hitting each other.
You can come with complete idiotic opinions, found strange parties (e.g.
the beer-drinker party, the car-driver-party, the unemployed-party, ...)
and seriously discuss all kinds of stuff without attacking in personal.

e.g. my own values are that I differenciate between a person and the
things a person has done. I would e.g. don't like the things a person
has done, but would not atack the person itself. This lead into the
action that I will easily sit next to frederic and will not HATE him
while sitting next to him, but I will raise my voice if he SAYS someting
I think this would be a lie.
There is a border. I would not call him asshole or stupid or whatever
bad name when he sits next to me, because i don't want to hurt him.
But when he says A and I am the opinion NOt A than I do say: You are
wrong Fred, this is a lie.
In my opinion YOU would now call this a very personal attack, but in
fact it is only that I am having a different opinion and expressing it
WITHOUT hating the person.
Very often I have felt that you cannot differenciate this when I express
my opinons. Anything I say is taken as an attack by you, as if I would
really hate or disklike you or as if I would attack you and your folk or
americans or whatever.
The sense or expressing prejudices or discussing things with different
point of views IS NOT to attack the other side, but to clearify own
point of views.

I see no reason why I should not be in one room without my enemies and
beeing very normal to them.
E.g. when I was in Paris sitting next to Peter Schreiner, Frederic came
in and said hello to all. I did not shoot at him and did not throw a
knife into his face. I did not said you asshole or whatever.
I was surprise myself that he was so nice but shake hands with him and
we talked like 2 humans without killing each other.

I call this culture. You can call it whatever.

If my statements here have overstepped the border of CCC from your point
of view this could be a reason of us having different values concerning
attacking range.

IMO than we having a cultural problem between americans and europeans.

I don't know why you take anything personal. Or seeing hatred or
campaigns behind it.
If you know people for years, you cannot hate them because you are used
to know them. You can be different opinion, but you cannot hate somebody
you know for over 10 years in person.
I like Dirk, Moritz and Matthias W. I like you too. This does not stop
me from having different opinions like you have.





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