Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 08:08:29 04/24/01
Go up one level in this thread
On April 24, 2001 at 10:48:02, Uri Blass wrote: >On April 24, 2001 at 10:05:55, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On April 24, 2001 at 08:47:06, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On April 24, 2001 at 08:20:57, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On April 24, 2001 at 03:47:15, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>the best software that is not IBM. >>>>> >>>>>Suppose there is a match of 20 games at tournament time control >>>>> >>>>>I am interested to know how many people expect 20-0 for IBM >>>>>How many people expect 19.5-.5?.... >>>> >>>>>If IBM expect to do better result then the average result that the public expect >>>>>then they can earn something from playing a match of 20 games with Deep Blue. >>>>> >>>>>I believe that a part of the public who read the claim that kasparov played like >>>>>an IM are not going to expect good result for IBM.> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>First of all IBM would get out of book every game with -1.0 pawn >>>>disadvantage (which is about the average of what Kure and Noomen >>>>get in tournaments, sometimes they get out of book with mate in XXX even). >>> >>>I disagree. >>> >>>1)It is easy to avoid -1 pawn disadvantage by using a small book. >>>It is also easy to get the opponent out of book (for example by lines like 1.c3 >>>and 2.Qc2) >> >>>2)Kure and Noomen do not get +1.0 pawn advantage from the opening after every >>>game >> >>Oh well says the beginner who never visited a world champ. >> >>Please visit a big tournament, or ask what the average score was of >>Nimzo / Fritz out of book and Tiger. >> >>The average score from Tiger out of book in dutch open 2000 was +1.0, >>world champs it was even worse. >> >>Please get a bit less stubborn and either analyze the games or take it >>from someone who was there already for a lot of times. >> >>Each game one of those books, either Noomen or Kure, gets out of book >>with a mate in XXX score against its opponent. >> >>That's not a joke. That's REALITY. >> >>Even that score not counted the other games the average is +1.0. >> >>Most games at a world champ you play against AMATEURS / weak commercials, >>difference is very little between that. Basically defined as >>basic income of chess is not enough to feed ones family from. >> >>Every programmer who joined these tournaments has EXPERIENCED this >>problem. Programs aren't humans who FLEXIBLE can pick a new line >>somewhere. >> >>I never manage to explain that problem to chessplayers, like >>for example team members of mine. >>They always laugh and say: "how can your opening book be at most 1900 >>rated and the program way better as that? Must be EASY to make a 2500+ >>book at home". >> >>It is NOT easy. All my teammembers share they play just one stupid opening. >>One of them always plays ben-oni. The other plays always accelerated >>dragon and so on. >> >>Recently one of the big criticizers (he 2347 rated) >>i prepared a SINGLE line for at home, >>i just took it from NCO99. I got out of book with black very well now. >>10 moves later i was bigtime won and won the first pawn. >> >>Now IMAGINE the problem for a chessprogram if i use the NCO99 book where >>many lines are already refuted from when playing Noomen and Kure nowadays... >>...note i already win from all other progs easily >> >>If i one day entered the line then i must update it every week to not >>get outbooked in a tournament, because old lines keep in the book of >>course. I can't follow daily the latest novelties as published in the >>latest books and issues of magazines. > >You do not need to follow the latest books. > >You only need to start soemthing like 1.c3 and 2.Qc2 and I do not see how you >get negative score of -1 or worse out of book. > >If you do not want to get out of book early you also have no problem and you >only need to build a small user book based on some rare lines that are not >mistakes > >Example:you may include only 1.b3 for white. >After 1.b3 you may include only 2.Bb2 > >You can continue in this way and only include one possible reply and not many >possible replies for every move(you need many possible replies for the ssdf >games because in the ssdf you need to learn from losing but you do not need it >for tournaments). For a human this is possible yes. But for a program you take a *high* risk here. > > >> >>If you play a correspondence game, then you search at THIS moment for >>new openingstheory to play at THIS moment in a game. >> >>Now that's just ONE openings line. Even with a small book >>I need to be prepared to face thousands of opening lines. Suppose you >>short before a tournament start 1000 correspondence games, how high is >>the quality of the opening in those games? > >It is easy to avoid -1 score if this is the target. -1 is easy to avoid first move out of book. but if your intention is to win a few games then you are faced with bigger problems as just putting 1.b3 in book and then end up with all games lost. >Uri
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