Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 15:58:05 04/25/01
Go up one level in this thread
On April 25, 2001 at 10:06:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On April 25, 2001 at 08:42:55, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On April 24, 2001 at 20:30:25, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On April 24, 2001 at 13:59:03, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On April 24, 2001 at 13:37:02, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>pa4b5P Pa6b5p ra2a6 Nd6b7 bc5e3 Nb7d6 ra6a7 Bf8e7 >>>>> 9(6) #[axb5](49)#################################### 49 T=55 >>>>>pa4b5P Pa6b5p ra2a6 Nd6b7 bc5b6 Ra8a6r ra1a6R Nb7d6 >>>>>10(6) #[axb5](49)##################################### 49 T=160 >>>>>pa4b5P Pa6b5p ra2a6 Nd6b7 bc5f8B Qe8f8b ng3f5 Ra8a6r ra1a6R Rc8b8 >>>>>11(6) #[axb5](49)#[Nf5](50) 50 T=308 >>>>>ng3f5 Nd6f5n pe4f5N Pb5a4p bc2a4P Bd7a4b ra2a4B Qe8d7 bc5f8B Rc8f8b pf5f6 Qd7d5p >>>> >>>>Very confusing is whether it's a 11 ply PV or 12 ply pv. >>> >>> >>>What is the confuision. Hsu said "11(6) means 11 plies nominal in software, >>>6 more plies in the chess chips." What can _possibly_ be confusing about >>>that? >> >> >>Then Hsu is a big liar: > > >based on what??? > > >> >> >><ch> 'c' >>--------------------------------------- >>--> 1. e4 <-- 39/119:51 >>--------------------------------------- >>Guessing c5 >> 3(4)[Nf3](30) 30^ T=1 >>ng1f3 Qd8c7 >> 3(5) 38 T=2 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 >> 4(5) 38 T=2 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 >> 5(5)[Nf3](52) 52 T=2 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 >> 6(5)[Nf3](68) 68 T=4 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 nb1c3 >> 7(5) #[Nf3](68) 68 T=5 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 nb1c3 Ng8f6 >> 8(6) #[Nf3](59) 59 T=6 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 bf1b5 Qd8b6 nb1a3 >> 9(6) #[Nf3](66) 66 T=8 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 nb1c3 Ng8f6 bf1e2 Pd7d6 >>10(6) #[Nf3](53) 53 T=18 >>ng1f3 Nb8c6 bf1b5 Ng8f6 pe4e5 Nf6g4 bb5c6N Pd7c6b >>11(6)<ch> 'e5' >>--------------------------------------- >>--> Pe7e5 <-- >>--------------------------------------- >> >>the 11 ply PV here doesn't show 11 ply or more. Knowing that >>at least 3 moves in this pv get extended it's very questionable >>whether they searched more as 5 ply in software here apart >>from the extensions. > > >So what? For every such PV you show that is short, I can show two that >are normal. I get short PVs all the time. > > > >> >>the 7(5) pv : ng1f3 Nb8c6 nb1c3 >> >>at the start of a game with 30 SP processors and probably sufficient >>hash, does that look like a 12 ply PV to you? > > >want me to post some 14 ply searches with a 2 ply PV from crafty? Got >plenty of them... But i don't get a single one with DIEP of 2 ply at 14 ply of search. They are *not* using PVS but normal alfabeta and they don't show fail highs but they show mainlines here. Mainlines of just 3 ply at the first move is *very* uncommon! Unless you do a few ply and then use hardware!! Still i'm waiting for your answer on that deep blue is the tactical worst chess computer in the world if your statement would be true and 8(6) means 14 ply.... 14 ply for a program which is searching as far as i know fullwidth, using SE, recaptures etc, doing checks in qsearch sometimes even extending it a ply etc. To find a simplistic material shot 14 ply then would be unsound bad! Amazing, no program needs 14 ply for that! Idem for about all PVs it shows. I get the same mainlines nearly at the same depth. So if they show 10(6) then i get at 10 ply the same PV usually! Of course only when i turn on SE + recaptures! And of course when DB plays a weak move DIEP usually plays a better one! Best regards, Vincent > > > >> >>To me it looks like a 2 ply PV + 1 pv extension and 5 ply in hardware... >> >>Don't tell me that every game they had bugs in hashing :) >> >>Best regards, >>Vincent >> >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>the moves with n or N behind it means captures. DB extends in software >>>>nearly all captures. I see around 3 non capturing moves here. >>> >>>Where do you get that? Their main extension is the singular extension. >>>Captures don't trigger that every time. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>So 5 or 6 ply in software + capture extensions >>>>(either recapture extensions or SE) >>>>+ 6 ply in hardware. >>>> >>>>Very logical. >>>> >>>>note it's a 12 ply PV you see here *not* a 11 ply pv. >>> >>>Vincent... you are trying to make up the rules as you go. I specifically >>>asked Hsu about the depth. Your interpretation is totally off-the-wall and >>>irrelevant to the discussion. He said that the 11 above means that the >>>software was started with a depth of "11", which would be reduced by one >>>for each ply searched, and extended as indicated based on their normal >>>extension logic. When depth reaches zero, they then give that position to >>>a chess processor which then searches from that position for N plies, where >>>N in this case is 6 more. The only difference is that singular extensions >>>don't happen in the hardware. >>> >>>The chess processors _can_ probe a hash table. But he reported that he did >>>not have time to design a 16-port memory module for each chess board... so >>>the 1997 version didn't do hash probes. But only because he didn't have time >>>to do it, not because it is impossible to do. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I get way longer lines at 12 ply with extensions turned on as this :) >>> >>> >>>So what. You don't have the same problem. They used 32 processors. A >>>single processor searched about 1/2 way thru the nominal software depth, >>>then positions were farmed out to 32 nodes on the SP (which use message >>>passing for communication and have distributed memory). After depth goes >>>to zero, the remainder of the search was done by chess processors that have >>>_no_ hash memory, and _no_ PV facilities... Which means they will _never_ >>>see the part of the PV searched by the chess hardware. And it is likely >>>that they will never see all of the software PV since the PV was searched >>>by different processors with no shared hash... >>> >>>Looking at the length of the PV is meaningless, and I have pointed this out >>>before. They can _not_ get a PV from the chess hardware. _period_. It is >>>simply impossible as it was not designed into the processors, and with no >>>hash table, there is no other way to do it... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>>qf2g3 Pg7g5 >>>>>--------------------------------------- >>>>>--> 33. Nf5 <-- 7/65:41 >>>>>--------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>This is caused by 30 diff processors with SE implemented. >>>>I have those huge lines too in DIEP when i turn on all extensions! >>>> >>>>No big deal. >>>> >>>>If 6(6) would mean 6 ply in software and 6 ply in hardware, >>>>then why do we see only 5 ply line? >>> >>>See above. I get short PVs all the time. Since their hash is distributed >>>over 32 nodes, who knows what gets overwritten, and when... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Even if you overwrite on an SP computer you still get 6 ply! >>> >>>Nope. They reconstruct PV from hash, since they can't back the PV up >>>from endpoints due to hardware. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Now the theoretic impossibility of searching 17 ply fullwidth >>>>*with* all those extensions the first 11 ply. >>>> >>>>Apart that each search line must be like 15 ply then or so, >>>>It's going to use up a lot of nodes. >>>> >>>>For deep blue it would cost around 5^6 more as the nodes they got in 1997! >>>> >>>>>Again I reiterate, the notation 11(6) means 11 plies in software search, >>>>>6 plies in the hardware, plus the quiescence in hardware. There is _no_ >>>>>argument with this. Simply ask any of the DB guys. 11(6) is a total of >>>>>17 plies of search. >>>> >>>>Noop it is not Bob. It is 11 or 12 plies of search from which 6 ply >>>>in hardware. Makes sense. Logical and clearly visible from the lines. >>>> >>> >>> >>>No it doesn't. You don't get to directly contradict the DB team, just because >>>you can't imagine how it could be done. If half of the search were done by >>>the chess processors, you would _never_ see a 12 ply PV, since the chess >>>processors can't provide _any_ PV at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The first few ply >>>> >>>>Note that if it would be 11 ply of search with pruning + 6 ply in hardware, >>>>then deep blue is the tactical worst program in history as it sees >>>>Bf5 in game 6 at 8(6) which would be 14 ply then, which doesn't make >>>>sense! Not even if you forward prune a lot! >>>> >>>>Shredder needs 8 ply for it too. It's a tactical queen win. >>>>Shredder is doing recapture extensions as far as i know. >>>> >>>>If i turn on extensions in diep i also need 8 plies. without recapture >>>>extensions i need 9 or 10 ply. >>>> >>>>Idem for other progs! >>>> >>>>Best regards, >>>>Vincent >>>> >>> >>>So? Db is not "other progs"...
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