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Subject: Re: That busts me! I can't tollerate the differences anymore RE DJ vs DF.

Author: Dann Corbit

Date: 18:09:36 04/30/01

Go up one level in this thread


On April 30, 2001 at 19:02:27, Uri Blass wrote:

>On April 30, 2001 at 18:48:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On April 30, 2001 at 18:28:56, John Merlino wrote:
>>
>>>On April 30, 2001 at 15:43:56, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 30, 2001 at 13:20:33, stuart taylor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I feel It's just a bit tooo inconsistent now. First 5 straight wins for DJ, then
>>>>>nothing like it again, and even 3 straight wins for DF.
>>>>>There must be something wrong somewhere!
>>>>>People can say calmly "that's ok! nothing to worry about! It's quite normal!"
>>>>>OR perhaps, chess is really a game of luck!!!
>>>>>OK, if its proven beyond doubt that all this was the way things go, without any
>>>>>imballance or bug because of things like learning, autoplayer etc. that's fine.
>>>>>But I would like to see it investigated fully.
>>>>> Unless it was that the first 5 games were openings which were advantageous to
>>>>>DJ, but having "learned" them, DF was now well protected from these Junior
>>>>>tricks. Could that be the case?
>>>>>S.Taylor
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Pick any two programs.  Play 50 games.  You will find at _least_ one place
>>>>where each won 5 games in a row.  There is absolutely nothing unusual about
>>>>this.
>>>
>>>Of course, you mean two theoretically equal programs (and do you also assume
>>>that there are no draws?). And, just to test this, I just looked at the results
>>>of a few 100-game matches, and there was only one instance of a program winning
>>>four in a row. There were no five win sequences. There were MANY sequences in
>>>which White won four in a row, though.
>>
>>I was not ignoring draws...  and even with two programs that are 100 points
>>different is skill, I have seen the weaker win 5 in a row in a reasonable
>>match...
>
>It is not common  Junior was 3 times black in the first 5 games.
>
>If you assume 30% chances for black to win and 40% chances for white to win
>you get probability of less than 0.5% for Junior to win the first 5 games.
>
>The probability that one of the program wins games 1-5 is
>0.4^2*0.3^3+0.4^3*0.3^2=0.00432+0.00576=0.0108
>The probability that one of the programs win games 2-6 is also 0.0108
>...
>The probability that one of the programs win games 46-50 is also 0.0108
>
>Conclusion:
>The probability of the union of these 46 events is less than 0.0108*46
>It means that the probability to get 5 wins in a row for one side if you play 50
>games is less than 50%.

I think the model is probably flawed a bit.  I have seen some really strange
sequences with chess programs.   Especailly learning throws a monkey wrench into
the model, since the events are not *really* independent.

I wonder if the machines were swapped again after each set of 5 games.  One
machine being peculiarly better would explain the outcome to some degree if it
was switched at game 5 and stayed there.



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