Author: Larry Proffer
Date: 00:09:21 05/03/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 02, 2001 at 18:05:50, Fernando Villegas wrote: >On May 02, 2001 at 14:13:45, Gordon Rattray wrote: > >>On May 02, 2001 at 12:30:28, Fernando Villegas wrote: >> >>>Your long analysis whould be addressed to Brain Games, not to Enrique. And Brain >>>Game could say to you: it's me who organizes the match, then it's me who put the >>>rules". Period. >> >>Sure, but people don't have to support it. >> >>>When we live an age when one comp tourn after another fall in pieces, we just >>>should be happy to have some extra events, no matter the shortcomings. The issue >>>of the names, BEST this, BEST that, is not important. What do you expect? That >>>they say "K. Vs maybe the second best, K. Vs just a good one, K. againts some of >>>the many programs in the top, K. fighting a a decent program..." ? >>>Come on, man, this is business and without business we have nothing. Better >>>something than nothing. >>>Besides, DF and DJ are AT LEAST two of the maybe three tops programs. The third >>>one could be Tiger or Ferret, who knows. But it is only one of the three. >>>Fernando >> >> >>You say "better something than nothing"... it's easy for you to say! What >>about the chess programmers who have worked for years on their programs!!! >> >>It's totally unfair to expect these programmers just to accept being unfairly >>dismissed from a match that people will generally regard as involving the best >>computer program available, especially after the "Kasparov vs. Deep Blue" match >>set the tone for "best human versus the best computer". > > > >I do not think they were dismissed just like that. The match was thought from >the beginning for commercial AND multiprocessor engines and only three -the >invited- qualified for that. > It is absolutely vital for the 'defence' of the decision making process and your friend Enrique that you get this _commercial_ adjective included in the pre-requirement. But there is no reason for it. Why should Keene/BGN care if the computer contender is commercial or amateur. It is conceivable that an amateur program playing Kramnik would be even better publicity for BGN. Why not amateur SMP Ferret? Ferret was the program that saw the draw in Kasparov-Deep Blue game 5(?). This was reported in the international press. They could have made something of that for PR. "The program that outsaw Deep-Blue and Kasparov now has the chance to lah-di-dah-blah-blah-PR-PR" Ray "They are playing on mainframes in Bahrain" Keene doesn't care one way or the other whether the program is commercial or not; why should he? Why should Kramnik care? They'ld have liked Deep Blue, where's the commercial in that? Why, actually, would expert Enrique, friend of computer chess and independant advisor, want to exclude with commercial only? He has nothing from the past against an amateur program playing Kramnik, as far as I know. If he wanted to exclude to commercial only, when good amateurs were also around; doesn't this imply an agenda? Fernando, the 'commercial' requirement was tacked on at the end after the choice was made in order to try and justify the choice. And who argued for commercial only? Nobody argued specifically for that. Ossi argued for Ossi. Chessbase argued for Chessbase. Both argued for nobody else to compete. The question still is: Did Enrique represent that "these programs and no others were all that was needed to play" to BGN? If so, why? >> >>It doesn't matter how good DF or DJ are. All that matters it *how* and *why* >>they qualified for the match when others didn't. If it's because the organisers >>wanted it that way, then they are entitled to do that, but they cannot mislead >>people thereafter. > > >Who has been misleaded? If rules are clear, results are clear. What can be said >is: between two available multiprocessor engines, one won the other narrowly. >Respect other people, not concerned with chess computer, this issue cannot care >them less. There weren't any rules. It was a business deal. > > >What if Kramnik is defeated? Are the organisers going to >>state that DF may not be the best program available? Are they going to >>emphasise to the public that only SMP programs were considered? etc etc The >>organisers may be entitled to organise as they wish, but it doesn't give them >>the right to false claims, and this will happen. > > >Let us see what happens and then what they say. > > >> >>I do however accept your point is that there is a strong business aspect to this >>match. But what's good for business, isn't necessarily good in other aspects, >>i.e. morally correct. >> > >Morality has no room here. This is an industry and because it is so we have so >many good programs. > Morality has no place in the business. The sides to the contract operate on self-interest only. That is natural and normal. But. But. But. But. Enrique was called in as independant expert - this is different - this introduces morality, or, it is supposed to introduce morality. Keene wanted to bring in morality. He organises a tournament which is going to be PR-ed and represented to other business and in the international press. Keene needs that it *is* and *looks* ok. He doesn't want to be sitting on a great pile of shit - not in his interests. When Enrique is called in, he is expected to produce a 'moral' solution. One that is and seems fair. That's why he's called in as independant expert with no links to any party. SSDF representative likewise. > > >>In short, this match is being driven by money. That's fine for those making the >>money. Unfortunately however these people don't put the interests of computer >>chess first. >> Keene knows this. That's why he called in experts, to advise him and give a 'fair and reasonable' feel and actuality to the event. > > >I think they have put enough interest, at least the neccesary to expend money to >organize the match. We cannot expect that besides that they think in going >further to please us, a tiny bunch of geeks. Slowly, you begin to realise that the model of this place as baboon colony with alphas in incorrect. This is the juvenile section of the baboon colony. The alphas are all someplace else making the decisions and the money. Or in some cases just terrifying the place by their memory alone. Sorry, couldn't help that last couple of paras. > >My best >Fernando >>Gordon
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