Author: John Merlino
Date: 14:14:17 05/03/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 03, 2001 at 14:43:37, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >On May 03, 2001 at 13:49:04, John Merlino wrote: > >>On May 03, 2001 at 06:26:19, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >> >>>You are right: The CM8_Utzinger is much better at longer time controls. >>> >>>But please again note my already at CCC published objection against playing >>>Chessmaster.CMP's against each other: >>> >>>You will have noticed that I do never play CM8_default vs CM8_Utzinger or >>>similar matches between the various CM8_personalities. It is my deepest >>>conviction that such trials are more or less a waste of time. At first I have >>>made this too but soon recognized that whatever settings are used vs other top >>>programs, the supposed best CM8_setting at a given time control had [like >>>CM8_default] not much chances against Junior6a or most other top programs. >>>Furthermore I have investigated about 150 test positions with six CM8_settings >>>[CM8 default, and 5 others, no Chessmaster.CMP already defined in CM8] only to >>>see that they all were close together. In any case: with these tests it was >>>simply not possible to define the best CM8_setting. And funny, Chessmaster_8000 >>>default took second/third place in these tests, the same CM8 which does not >>>succeed in the expected manner against other top programs. All these tests and >>>trials confirmed to me that it is somewhat useless to find the top CM8_setting >>>by let different CM8_personalities playing each other. And frankly spoken, who >>>in the chess world is interested in knowing that [let's say as an example] the >>>CM8_Titan [nothing against you Graham!] wins most of the time against any other >>>Chessmaster 8000 personality. Such a statement does not bring anything if the >>>same CM8_personality does not obtain fairly good results [at least 50 % is >>>required] against other top programs like ChessTiger14, Crafty, Fritz6, >>>GambitTiger2, Gandalf432h, Hiarcs732, Nimzo732, Shredder5 and so on. >>> >>>Kurt >> >>I completely understand your point, but there are two kinds of Chessmaster users >>to consider here: the kind the represent the users of this board, and the other >>95% (or more). >> >>The users here are (typically) owners of multiple chess programs (for various >>reasons). And many of them are interested in finding "the best" one of them all. >>This, of course, leads to people who keep upgrading and testing new versions >>against old versions, etc. etc. etc.... >> >>The OTHER 95+% of Chessmaster owners have ONLY Chessmaster (although they may >>have more than one version), and my testing is intended for them. All I'm >>interested in is finding the best OVERALL settings CONFINED to the Chessmaster >>world. If some settings can be found that are clearly equal or stronger over ALL >>time controls and on ALL hardware (which is what the default settings are >>intended to be), then I will definitely sit up and take notice (as I have done >>with CM_Utzinger). But, if someone creates a personality that is fantastic at >>blitz but weak at longer time controls, then I am not interested. >> >>jm > >At first glance a logical explanation. As far a blitz is concerned I would not >care much about playing strength. Even a "bad" CM8_personality beats 98 % of all >chess players. And if the same CM8.cmp is good at longer time controls this >might even convince the OTHER 5+% that still have not bought a Chessmaster and >all those who are more intersted in a good program for anylising purposes. Am I >wrong in assuming that the OTHER 95+% of Chessmaster owners are more or less >only interested in using the nice features of the Chessmaster than in playing >strength? On the other hand I do also understand your point of view and maybe >the selling policy of CM proves that I am on the wrong way. If so however, all >the work done to improve the CM8_settings are for me and similar persons rather >useless. > >Kurt The great majority of Chessmaster owners (probably the same as the great majority of owners of ANY chess program) have no chance at beating the program at its strongest setting. So, finding the STRONGEST setting only applies to those very few people (proportionately) who are titled players (or of similar strength). The Chessmaster series (all platforms) sells about 300,000 copies EACH YEAR, so it is easy to see that VERY few of the people who own a copy of Chessmaster can challenge the Chessmaster personality. BUT, be that as it may, the search for settings that are stronger than the default is a valid one. The default settings for Chessmaster have really not changed since CM5000 (and perhaps CM4000). Advances in processor speed and cheapness of RAM may allow other settings to be better, that weren't better just one year ago. So, your work is not useless. My testing of your personality has shown that it may be as strong as the default at blitz, and so far is shown to be stronger at longer time controls. Of course, so far my testing has only been on a PIII-600. If need be, we should try testing it on a low-end Pentium-II, to see if the results still hold true on slower machines. But there is always the possibility of including multiple "Chessmaster" personalities in the program -- one for all-around play, one fine-tuned for blitz, and another specifically for tournament time controls. This is not out of the question. So, therefore, I very much encourage your experiments and your testing, as with anybody else who is in search of the "ultimate" Chessmaster settings! ;-) jm
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.