Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 10:10:19 05/07/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 07, 2001 at 06:46:42, David Blackman wrote: >On May 06, 2001 at 21:43:37, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On May 06, 2001 at 08:35:07, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On May 05, 2001 at 12:01:08, Dana Turnmire wrote: >>> >>>> Here is an interesting article found in a 1989 CCR article. >>> >>>Exactly the biggest misunderstanding in chessbooks is that 2 rooks >>>are stronger as a queen. Even in most endgames a queen wins easily >>>against 2 rooks. >> >>I wouldn't say in "most". I would say in "some". Two rooks can box up >>a queen and make it impossible to win since the queen can't overpower the >>two rooks without the help of the king... > >If it's just 2 rooks and some pawns against 1 queen and some pawns, i'd back the >rooks usually to win. As long as there are not too many loose pawns, and the >king safety is reasonable, the rooks can often win even when one pawn down. I >used to think that the queen would beat or draw with the 2 rooks in an endgame, >but now i've played a few of those endgames and seen a small amount of GM >analysis, i've changed my mind. > >If there are more pieces on the board as well, it really depends on exactly what >pieces, and on the kind of position. Knights seem to work very well with queens, >and sometimes very well against rooks. Queens have much better mobility than >rooks in many common positions, and can use this if there are several targets to >attack and defend. But if the whole position is about controlling an open or >half-open file and then using it, the rooks should win. > >I quite like the 1,4,4,6,12 basic piece values and i find they work well. They >seem to get the right answer slightly more often than 1,3,3,5,9. In the case of >queen vs 2 rooks, i think 1,3,3,5,9 is closer to the truth, but in most other >cases 1,4,4,6,12 gets the same answer or is better. But either way can be made >to work. You just need to get the right positional factors in there, and make >sure they can add up to more than a pawn when they have to. And as you see the 1 4 4 6 12 is much closer to my piece values as 1 3 3 5 9 is to my piece values... In 99.9% of all positions the computer sees 2 rooks for a queen the queen side wins. Just verbose print the positions! The GM positions are really exceptions! Harder to evaluate it is when Rook + light piece beats a queen. There is a position in bs2830 where this happens. The qxd3 position. Some versions of DIEP find Qxd3 at 12 ply some at 13 ply. But it's a very hard to find position!
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