Author: Thorsten Czub
Date: 15:36:09 04/14/98
Go up one level in this thread
On April 14, 1998 at 13:44:34, Dirk Frickenschmidt wrote: >Hi Thorsten, > >On April 13, 1998 at 15:22:38, Thorsten Czub wrote: > >...[snipped most] And ?! Who cares ... :-) > >Perhaps the best really would be if a neutral programmer named by the >SSDF checked the integrity of the autoplayer. I accept what Ed said: a >programmer would be best suited to find out if this autoplayer shows any >irregular behaviour compared with the public auto232 or not. Of course >this programmer should be neutral and no competitor. It's over Dirk. Future versions of other chess-software will not further support the auto232-device. It's over. All the others do only react. ChessBase is the cause. A great service to the customers, from my point of view :-)) >after all >which I saw there's still no reason for hysteria and right away calling >for disqualifying the Fritz5 results . Pah - fritz5 disqualifies itself ! There is no need for others to do so. The best disqualification comes from posting games it has played. In this special feature Fritz5 is like his idol Helmut Kohl, you can give them both the best support by quoting them in original tone. >If you like to call something which seems to be doing principally the >same as a standard auto232 device (namely playing autoplayer tournament >games in a row) "a special device" you can of course do so. Thanks Dirk. Very tolerant of you. :-) >Though it sounds a bit funny to me, like they were using a time tunnel >or Scotty's beaming device or something like this within a simple >auto232-player, so it makes me smile a bit... >I for one hardly would call the Fritz auto232-player "a special device" >after all I could see :-) >But I find it a good idea to have a programmer check it to end this >discussion once for all. You will see which results the ChessBase device will have. Only one company is in charge for what happens in the next future. I am pleased to call them ChessBase. I will enjoy the next months with great passion. And I am sure it will give the ssdg-guys the best service it ever gave them :-) >Now soon as you show me some real reason for coming to other conclusions >- and not just by bad feeling or raising suspicion without *any* proof, >without *any* observation about published SSDF-games which anybody can >easily replay - we can talk about it. And I will say: "you were right". >If you were right. >No problem. I am not interested in this device. I am not interested in the games. I am not interested in their result. I believe in my own results. The whole debate is not about RIGHT or WRONG. You miss something. The point is that Fritz5 got a special condition for testing, other programs never had. If you want to measure ELO, you must give the participants fair and equal conditions. It is the same mistake ICCA made in Paris. But there they don't wanted to measure ELO of course. This was only a tournament to find a winner. Nothing scientific. Just PR to show ICCA competence. But in sweden they always claim that they do statistics and scientific approach. But how ? If one machine eats with golden and the other with wooden cutlery. >By the way, don't you think that someone like Ossi Weiner has been >searching - or has others search - day and night within the published >SSDF games to find possible inconsitencies? This is one *more* reason >why I hardly believe in all the funny rumors spread everywhere: *if* >there was anything substantial about them we could read the evidence in >"open letters" and advertising from this very person as *fast* as >possible, possibly yesterday :-))) I don't think Ossi Weiner is very accurate. He always claims to be, but I never found he is. He is good in establishing prejudices. >You know me well. I regard arguing without substantial observations as >poor arguing. And I know you well enough to be shure you can do better >and argue based on concrete observations, too. Look Dirk. I don't comment you second sentence. I cannot subscribe to your point of view. I don't need "substantial observations" to talk about a topic. I have heard you are a priest. I wonder how you can TALK about your believe. I am sure the people in your parish would be astonished about your comments here. I do believe in things that don't exist, like Ideas, believes. I believe in feelings you cannot prove, and in things you have no 24 months warranty like friendship or love. All these things cannot be explained with newton-mechanics like your statements define. Sorry. >>a special hardware platform, > >Wrong. >The SSDF began upgrading to 64MB. They not only use these machines for >Fritz5. So why should this be a "special hardware platform"?. We will see Dirk. I had no possibility to prove on which hardware they played with which software and WHY. >I am in favour of uniform platforms anywhere: in the SSDF as well as in >world championships. As a user I like to see what these programs do on a >P200MMX (or perhaps a Pentuium II-300 next year) with hardware I as a >user have myself (32Mb recently, now 64Mb - and not for the sake of >Fritz5! :-) ) > >Using exactly the same (P200MMX and 64Mb) as the SSDF did is *one* >reason why I don't believe in all these weak conspiration theories - and >frankly, am laughing aloud everytime when I have a look at Ossi Weiner's >advertising, claiming he has a "clean" SSDF-list - done by himself and >having his programs as leading programs on top. >Best computer chess joke I have seen since a while ... :-))) >And nearly any computer chess expert I know is laughing about this as >well. It is not my job to comment on Ossi Weiner. I cannot say much positive about him, so I better say nothing. He's defintely a capitalist. That explains many ethical questions for me. >>a NON open version, > >Wrong again: if Chessbase did not lie. On their website they say: > >"The Fritz engine that played in Sweden and in the Selective Search >tests is exactly the same as the one you get in the Fritz5 box. >There is >no "secret formula-1 Fritz" which we are holding back from our customers >(why on earth would we ship an inferior version?). All games played in >Sweden can easily be reproduced using a standard, off-the-shelf Fritz5." The Fritz5 I have cannot autoplay. All commercial versions cannot autoplay. I would say therefore the version sent to the ssdf-guys is a special version. I don't believe anybody hold back a special chess-engine. The junior engine is IMO a special version producing good results against Rebel, Genius and Hiarcs6. >The *only* acceptable reason I can see for claiming the opposite of >their official statement is in my eyes *proving* the opposite or at >least showing *some* sort of evidence - or shutting up... You have a different value system concerning FREE speech. I can talk about anything. Also about non proven things. Maybe I should be a priest ?! Or maybe not. When I see how you think about NON proven things, I better don't follow you... :-) >>non open book, >I seem to be using the same book (Fritz5 power-book) as far as I can see >from the published games. > >So what do you regard as "non-open" with their book? > The games they don't play are the NON-open part. The games they play are the same I have in my powerbooks. But who proves the games Fritz does not play because it has learned before not to play the lines ? MY fritz plays these losing lines and I cannot prove why the ssdf-machine is NOT playing them. I know you will not understand this complicate point, or will you ? >>etc. etc. > >What do you mean by "etc. etc."? et cetera, et cetera Dirk. I thought this is a common short form. Maybe I am wrong. I am not very educated. You are the Doc. >Do they use a secret stealth device to make Fritz5 unseen to the enemy >and thus confuse opposite programs? >Or perhaps Fritz5 is reading the opposite computer's e-mail with his >"special device" because he would be bored by just playing chess >otherwise? :-))) I guess THIS is the main weapon Dirk. >... [more snipped] Gefickt eingeschaedelt !! >>If they refuse to be fair or refuse to compete with publically available >>stuff, they refuse to compete. > >If someone calls a program "not publically available" of which >*anything* ssems to be available in public (engine-version, playing >conditions as I can easiliy reproduce them, RAM size like on more and >more computers, powerbook like I have it myself) - with the one exeption >of an auto232-device which they don't like to be misused for modern >methods of book-cooking, With the one exception. In the end you got it Dirk. Brilliant. Constantin good the same curve you got. Pythagoras was more in charge for triangles, but Constantin got the curve in the right moment. >sigh, then this rather reminds me of the Ossi Weiner kind of advertising >and propaganda than of serious reasoning which I could follow. Propaganda ! Pure Propaganda Dirk. Since I got the new title from Karsten Bauermeister in this C.hessBase-C.omputer and other S.hit magazin, I am training my facilities. Also to give Rolf some points he can attack. Maybe this puts the focus from Bob to my unimportant person so that Bob can continue to post chess-related stuff and not Tueschen related stuff. >Last word: I am really open to any kind of evidence and will immidiately You are open to evidence ? Wow ! This looks very "tolerant" and wise. How did you came to such a difficult and political correct statement. Own thinking or with help of your kids ? Whatever it was Dirk, it was a very intelligent statement. I cannot top it. You are open to evidence , and you will immidiately consider !! Ok - I will remember this. Will write it in my diary under: famous statements from experts. >consider it as soon as I see it, but I am no longer even a bit open to >constant rumors witout recognizable substance... You are no longer open to rumors ! Brilliant. So good bye Dirk ! >And believe me, I will refuse to confuse you with Ossi as long as I can! >;-) Ossi Weiner is not my best friend. This has some historical reasons... You are allowed to confuse me with him, or not, or whatever. You are allowed to do whatever Dirk. Even to refuse. >(Hart aber herzlich gemeint...) >Yours Dirk Manche Scheuklappen sind pink, andere gesprenkelt Dirk.
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