Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 01:05:58 05/23/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 21, 2001 at 06:52:52, Uri Blass wrote:
>This position could happen in kasparov-Deeper blue but kasparov did not play
>40.gxh5
>
>Based on Deeper blue logfiles we know that Deeper blue evaluated the position
>as 0.5 pawn advantage for white at depth 9(6)=15
>
>Crafty's evaluation at depth 15 is 2.93 pawns for white so we can see that the
>difference in evaluation is 2.43 pawns.
>
>Part of the difference can be explained by different evaluation but most of the
>difference is clearly because of the fact that Crafty can see more than Deeper
>blue.
>
>Deeper blue found the line 40...Bxh5 41.Rh1 only at depth 10(6)=16 when Crafty
>could see it at depth 14 and the line was not changed at the next 2 plies.
here output of diep
00:00 0 0 3 (0) 1 -1.071 Kh6xh5
00:00 0 0 4 (0) 1 -0.871 Bf3xh5
1 46 ( 0, 30) 0.04
00:00 0 0 95 (0) 2 -1.319 Bf3xh5 Bh3-g2
2 333 ( 0, 121) 0.06
00:00 0 0 733 (0) 3 -0.495 Bf3xh5 Bh3-g2 Ne5-f3
3 1104 ( 0, 231) 0.09
00:00 0 0 2326 (146) 4 -0.821 Bf3xh5 Bh3-g2 Ne5-g4 Ne3xg4 Bh5xg4
4 3604 ( 0, 1000) 0.14
00:00 0 0 8966 (873) 5 -0.744 Bf3xh5 Kf2-g3 Bh5-f3 Kg3-f4 Ne5xg6 f5xg6 K
h6xg6
5 11553 ( 0, 3089) 0.31
00:00 0 0 35894 (10198) 6 -0.812 Bf3xh5 Kf2-g3 Ne5-f3 Kg3-f4 Bh5xg6 Ne3-
g4 Kh6-h7 f5xg6 Kh7xg6
6 41667 ( 0, 14045) 0.81
00:01 0 0 91607 (26757) 7 -0.836 Bf3xh5 Rf1-h1 Bh5-f3 Rh1-g1 Bf3-h5 Bh3-
g2 Ne5-g4 Ne3xg4 Bh5xg4
7 110239 ( 0, 36468) 1.79
00:02 0 0 185166 (27020) 8 -0.836 Bf3xh5 Rf1-h1 Bh5-f3 Rh1-g1 Bf3-h5 Bc3
xe5 Rd8-a8
8 222784 ( 0, 71155) 3.31
00:08 0 0 645456 (223384) 9 -1.906 Bf3xh5 Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 Rh1-g1 Kg5-f6 Bh
3-g2 Bh5-f3 Bg2xf3 e4xf3 Ne3-g4 Kf6xf5 Ng4xe5 Re8xe5 Bc3xe5 Kf5xe5 Kf2xf3
9 1567558 ( 0, 471942) 19.39
00:30 0 0 2499488 (633557) 10 -1.902 Bf3xh5 Rf1-h1 Bh5-f3 Rh1-g1 Kh6-g7
Ne3-g4 Bf3xg4 Rg1xg4 Kg7-h6 Rg4xe4 Ne5xg6 Re4xe8 Rd8xe8 f5xg6 Kh6xg6
10 3141123 ( 0, 884536) 38.04
00:49 0 0 4190477 (1024099) 11 -1.902 Bf3xh5 Rf1-h1 Bh5-f3 Rh1-g1 Kh6-g7
Ne3-g4 Bf3xg4 Rg1xg4 Kg7-h6 Rg4xe4 Ne5xg6 Re4xe8 Rd8xe8 f5xg6 Kh6xg6
11 6318570 ( 0,1758465) 73.23
03:18 0 0 17629896 (4185242) 12 -2.548 Bf3xh5 Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 g6-g7 Ne5-f3
f5-f6 Bh5-f7 Bh3-f5 Nf3-d4 Bc3xd4 Rd8xd4 Bf5-h7 Rd4-d8 Ne3-g4 Rd8-d5 Ng4-e3
12 32298228 ( 0,9392425) 360.07
07:55 0 0 42947158 (5846716) 13 -2.548 Bf3xh5 Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 g6-g7 Ne5-f3
f5-f6 Bh5-f7 Bh3-f5 Nf3-d4 Bc3xd4 Rd8xd4 Bf5-h7 Rd4-d8 Ne3-g4 Rd8-d5 Ng4-e3
13 68161139 ( 0,20459216) 763.95
17:36 0 0 94997723 (16902305) 14 -2.548 Bf3xh5 Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 g6-g7 Ne5-f
3 f5-f6 Bh5-f7 Bh3-f5 Nf3-d4 Bc3xd4 Rd8xd4 Bf5-h7 Rd4-d8 Ne3-g4 Rd8-d5
14 148066535 ( 0,44952625) 1643.32
Note that i do in this position probably more dangerous extensions as
deep blue did
>
>Crafty can see the line 40...Bxh5 41.Rh1 Bf3 42.Rg1 Bh5 43.g7 Nf3 44.Rg3 c5
>45.bxc5 Rc8 46.f6 Rxc5 at depth 15 and 16 when Deeper blue can see it only at
>depth 17,18(deeper blue can see a different line but the difference is only
>41...Kg5 42.Rg1 Kh6 that leads to the same position as 41..Bf3 42.Rg1 Bh5 and
>moves 43-46 are the same.
>
>It seems that Crafty is a very good program and it can outsearch deeper blue by
>2 plies.
I'm not so sure crafty sees the same as deep blue at 10 ply. 10(6) is
ten ply.
>I do not know the meaning of the plies of deeper blue but it seems to be not
>brute force search.
>I also doubt if deeper blue could search 200M nodes per second otherwise I
>cannot understand the reason that it is outsearched by other top programs again
>and again based on the pv's
Oh well here it's time to hop in. I'm pretty sure it got 200M a second,
but i also know from my own experience that searching fullwidth with
loads of extensions and no hashtable the last 6 plies that means
a) that the last 6 plies the lemma of Knuth applies.
No hashtable and no pruning last 6 plies means simply that your
branching factor there is the square root of the number of
nodes.
b) the other plies the same applies as to programs WITH hashtable and
without nullmove and with loads of extensions.
So in short this explains
a) why it's branching factor is not so bad (also after some seconds
loads of processors join the search)
b) why it needs such a huge overhead to get to 10 ply.
>It is possible that the claims about 200M nodes per second were only a
>psychological war against kasparov
Not really. Just look at this: the previous deep projects search less
deeply without evaluation even.
Chiptest 8 ply (piece square tables?)
Deep Thought 9-10 ply (piece square tables)
Deep Blue 1 10/11 ply (piece square tables)
Deep Blue 2 12 ply (gnuchess evaluation with bigtime improved endgame)
>Here is the analysis of Crafty
>kasparov - Deeper blue
>[D]3rr3/8/2p3Pk/1p2nP1P/pP2p3/P1B1Nb1B/2P2K2/5R2 b - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Crafty 18.08:
>
>40...Kxh5
> +- (1.42) Depth: 1/8 00:00:00
>40...Kxh5 41.g7 Ng4+ 42.Bxg4+ Bxg4
> +- (1.68) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00
>40...Kg7 41.f6+ Kxf6
> +- (1.53) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00
>40...Kg7 41.f6+ Kxf6 42.Kg3
> +- (1.53) Depth: 3/8 00:00:00
>40...Kg7 41.Ng4 Bxg4 42.Bxg4 c5
> +- (2.58) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00
>40...Rd6
> +- (2.18) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00
>40...Rd6 41.Rg1 Bxh5 42.g7 Bf7
> +- (2.03) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00
>40...Kxh5
> +- (1.63) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00
>40...Bxh5 41.Bg2 Bf3 42.Bh3
> ± (1.34) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00
>40...Bxh5 41.Bg2 Nxg6 42.fxg6 Rf8+ 43.Ke1 Rxf1+ 44.Kxf1 Bxg6
> ± (1.33) Depth: 5/16 00:00:00
>40...Bxh5 41.Kg3 Kg5 42.Rf4 Bf3 43.Rh4
> +- (1.62) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 88kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Rg1 Kg7 42.Bg4 Kh6 43.Bxe5 Rxe5 44.Rh1
> +- (1.76) Depth: 7/19 00:00:01 222kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Rg1 Nf3 42.Rh1 Kg5 43.g7 Rg8 44.f6 Kf4
> +- (1.81) Depth: 8/20 00:00:01 480kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Rg1 Nf3 42.Rh1 Ne5 43.Bg2 Nxg6 44.fxg6 Kxg6
> +- (1.78) Depth: 9/23 00:00:03 1223kN
>40...Kxh5 41.Rg1 Kh4 42.Bf1 Kh5 43.g7 Ng4+ 44.Nxg4 Bxg4 45.Rh1+ Kg5 46.f6 e3+
>47.Kg3
> +- (1.77) Depth: 9/23 00:00:04 1778kN
>40...Kxh5 41.Rg1 Kh4 42.Bg2 Bxg2 43.Rxg2 Kh5 44.g7 Nf7 45.Rg6 Nd6 46.Bd4
> +- (2.01) Depth: 10/26 00:00:07 3318kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Kg3 Kg5 42.g7 Nf7 43.f6 Rg8 44.Rf4 Bf3 45.Be6 Kg6
> +- (1.94) Depth: 10/26 00:00:14 6548kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Kg3 Kg5 42.g7 Nf7 43.f6 Rg8 44.Be6 Bg6 45.Rh1 Rd6 46.Bg4
> +- (2.16) Depth: 11/27 00:00:24 11929kN
>40...Kxh5 41.Rg1 Kh4 42.Bg2 Bxg2 43.Rxg2 Kh5 44.g7 Nf7 45.Bf6 Rd2+ 46.Kf1 Rxg2
>47.Kxg2
> +- (2.14) Depth: 11/27 00:00:33 16243kN
>40...Kxh5 41.Rg1 Kh6 42.g7 Nf7 43.Rg6+ Kh7 44.Rxc6 Rc8 45.Rxc8 Rxc8 46.Bd4 Rd8
>47.Bc3 Kg8
> +- (2.53) Depth: 12/29 00:01:24 41952kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Kg3 Kg5 42.g7 Nf3
> +- (2.45) Depth: 12/29 00:01:48 54476kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Kg3 Kg5 42.g7 Nf7 43.Rf4 Nd6 44.f6 Bg6 45.Rg4+ Kh5 46.Kf4 Rg8
>47.Rg5+ Kh4 48.Be6
> +- (2.71) Depth: 13/32 00:02:59 89583kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Rh1 Kg5 42.Rg1+ Kf6 43.Bg2 Bf3 44.Bxf3 exf3 45.g7 Kf7 46.g8Q+ Rxg8
>47.Rxg8 Rxg8 48.Bxe5 Re8 49.Ng4
> +- (2.61) Depth: 14/34 00:08:56 267478kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Rh1 Bf3 42.Rg1 Bh5 43.g7 Nf3 44.Rg3 c5 45.bxc5 Rc8 46.f6 Rxc5
>47.Bb4 Rg5 48.Rxg5 Kxg5
> +- (2.93) Depth: 15/39 00:23:36 722662kN
>40...Bxh5 41.Rh1 Bf3 42.Rg1 Bh5 43.g7 Nf3 44.Rg3 c5 45.bxc5 Rc8 46.f6 Rxc5
>47.Bb4 Rg5 48.Rxg5 Kxg5 49.Be7
> +- (3.06) Depth: 16/40 00:43:40 1309529kN
>
>(Blass, Tel-Aviv 21.05.2001)
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