Author: Miguel A. Ballicora
Date: 16:37:02 05/24/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 24, 2001 at 12:45:21, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 24, 2001 at 12:20:18, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote: > >>On May 24, 2001 at 06:49:09, Ferdinand S. Mosca wrote: >> >>>On May 24, 2001 at 05:14:07, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote: >>> >>>>On May 24, 2001 at 05:06:48, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote: >>>> >>>>>epd record is >>>>>5rk1/1pp3p1/p1p5/7p/6P1/4b3/PPP2RPP/5RK1 b - - bm h4; >>>>> >>>>>[D]5rk1/1pp3p1/p1p5/7p/6P1/4b3/PPP2RPP/5RK1 b - - >>>>>It is a modified version of a position from real tournament play that >>>>>I saw in www.inforchess.com. I modified so a program won't find the solution >>>>>for the wrong reasons. I tested crafty and could not find the solution >>>>>even after 17 plies. I did not continue further. >>>>>Is there any program that find the solution in a reasonable time? >>>>>This is very easy for humans, I find the solution myself instantanously >>>>>and took me few seconds to verify it. The original position is without the >>>>>white pawn in g4. >>> >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Miguel >>>> >>>>Of course, the solution is h4 and white is paralyzed. >>>> >>>>Miguel >>> >>> >>>Very difficult indeed, Yace and Chezzz like 1...hxg4 and could not see 1...h4!! >>>if then 2. g3 h3!, could this be a good test for pin and king mobility perhaps. >>>Black has to see that a pawn on h3 is paralyzing for white. >> >>This position also involved a long term zugswang. Once white is paralyzed >>it should move the pawns in the q side until it runs up of moves or black >>captures them all. >>I have an idea about making the test even more difficult for computers, where >>there is paralysis but no zugswang. > >Zunzwang is exactly the difficult point for computers because null movers cannot >detect zunzwang. > >If you give no zunzwang it will become easier for computers. > >A lot of programs are going to fail even in the following position > >[D]5rk1/6p1/8/7p/6P1/4b3/5RPP/5RK1 b - - 0 1 > > > But firs, there should be a program >>able to solve this "easy" problem... > >Of course if you give a non null mover 999999999999999999999999 years then it is >probably going to solve it but it is faster to wait to better hardware and not >start now. > >I do not believe that a top program can solve it because no programs can >calculate all the pawn moves by search. > >A program that is not going to solve it in few seconds will probably never >solve it. > >If you want to test the search of chess programs then do not give so many pawns >in the board. > >Here is a test position that can be solved by search but it is not so easy > >[D]5rk1/p5p1/P7/7p/6P1/4b3/P4RPP/5RK1 b - - 0 1 > >Uri [D]5rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3p2P1/3Pb3/5RPP/PPP2RK1/8 b - - Black to move and win with h5. No zugswang here, white can play for ever Rf1-f2-f1. Now there is no zugswang, but too deep to see a victory, only evaluation can make it. Black King is loose to place itself in a good position to trade everything in f3 to win a pawn endgame. Can pepito see it? If it can, can win the game if you play against it? Any other program? Regards, Miguel
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