Author: Miguel A. Ballicora
Date: 20:28:27 05/24/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 24, 2001 at 22:53:46, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 24, 2001 at 19:37:02, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote: > > >>[D]5rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3p2P1/3Pb3/5RPP/PPP2RK1/8 b - - >> >>Black to move and win with h5. No zugswang here, white can play for ever >>Rf1-f2-f1. Now there is no zugswang, but too deep to see a victory, only >>evaluation can make it. Black King is loose to place itself in a good position >>to trade everything in f3 to win a pawn endgame. Can pepito see it? >>If it can, can win the game if you play against it? >>Any other program? > >I am going to play h5 in a game because I am sure that black is not losing but >I am not sure if black can win after h5 h4. > >White is a pawn up in the pawn endgame and I suspect that white can put the >pawns in good squares by b3 and c3 so black cannot trade pieces in the right >way. place the king in d6, play b6, c5, Kc6, Kb5, a5, a4. Create a hole in c4 or force a passed pawn. I think that black wins. Anyway, it does not matter. h5 is the only chance to keep an advantage. >I suspect that no top program can find h5 and the only programs that can find >h5 are weak programs and the fact that they can find it is because of some bug >or bad design decision that may be productive in this position but counter >productive in other positions. > >Your previous test position was already too hard to find by search and this >position is even harder to find by evaluation because in the previous position >white can see by evaluation that only pawns can move when in this case the rook >can also move. That is the idea... >I do not understnad why do you expect programs to see things that almost never >happen in games. You don't need to undersant it, because I don't expect anything. Why do you assume that I expect them to find these things? In fact, I expect them to fail. The reason of my post was curiosity, because maybe there is a program that sees it. Anyway, this motif _happens_ in games. A pin that paralyzes the opponent is not so uncommon. In fact, I extract the position from a real game. On the other hand, the problem is not this motif, is even bigger, it is the lack of long term planning that hurts. That hurts most of the programs many times in the endgames, where calculation sometimes is secondary and the most important thing is logical thinking (kind of retrograde thinking). >Programmers usually care about winning games and not about your positions. "My" positions? I did not invent anything! In fact, you came up with a position of your own. We are having fun here. At least I do. Anyway, the programmers want to win. That is right, but if they were interested in A.I. they would also approach some problems that are not that common. My point of wiew is simpler, I have fun with chess. Regards, Miguel > >Uri
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