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Subject: Re: A really nasty position

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 17:45:08 05/29/01

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On May 29, 2001 at 18:41:44, Peter Fendrich wrote:

>On May 29, 2001 at 17:19:09, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On May 29, 2001 at 14:21:13, Peter Fendrich wrote:
>>
>>>This position appeared in an ICC game: Guitje - TerraPi
>>>
>>>[D]2r3kb/5q1p/4pPp1/1p1pP3/p2P2Q1/PrP5/1P3R1R/2B3K1 w - - 0 42
>>>
>>>the last move from Terra was 41... b5
>>>Some moves earlier when white made g6, Terra decided to move the bishop from g7
>>>to h8.
>>>Both Rb3 and Bh8 are locked in and Terra is absolutely unaware of the
>>>hopeless situation. Yes, Terra lost...
>>>
>>>I see two different but connected problems for computer programs here:
>>>  - the closed position itself
>>>  - the two blocked pieces.
>>>
>>>How do you solve/avoid positions like this? Terra has about equal eval for this
>>>position.
>>>It is of course possible to punish pawn chains like this in order to avoid
>>>closed positions but is that really a solution and how to deal with blocked
>>>positions?
>>>
>>>//Peter
>>
>>
>>First, this looks dead lost.  I get big scores (>3) after a few seconds and 13
>>plies.
>
>Yes it is but the point is that a search is needed and the search finds a
>tactical breaktrhrough but that's another story. The problem is the total
>unawareness of the situation up til now and the willingness to end up in a
>position like this. The fact remains that Terra gives a completely wrong static
>evaluation. How about Crafty?

Here is my static evaluation:

note: scores are for the white side
material evaluation.................   0.00
development.........................   0.00
pawn evaluation.....................   1.45
passed pawn evaluation..............  -0.45
passed pawn race evaluation.........   0.00
king safety evaluation..............   0.48
interactive piece evaluation........  -0.45
total evaluation....................   1.03


It concludes white is a pawn up, based only on evaluation of positional
things, since material is 0.00


>
>>
>>The position you gave is too late to repair.  You have to recognize blocked
>>pawns _before_ they are blocked, which means the 'mistakes' were made earlier
>>in the game.  I evaluate blocked pawns in Crafty, but I also evaluate pawn
>>levers and make sure I keep a pawn break opportunity alive to avoid getting
>>into totally closed positions...
>
>I don't like the idea to give punishment for things that theoretical aren't bad.
>A closed position can be a winning position even for a computer, if we could
>handle it....
>

Not exactly.  If it is _really_ closed to the computer, you have no way of
winning at all since you have no pawn breaks.  It means that either your
opponent makes a break that wins for him, or he makes a mistake and makes
a break that lets you win.  But if you have _no_ break options, you are stuck
with what he wants.

That is the point of my pawn lever evaluation code... to not reach positions
where I have zero pawn breaks, since I don't want to be at my opponent's
mercy...



>>
>>Here you should probably find Rxh7 is crushing of course...
>
>//Peter



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