Author: Slater Wold
Date: 22:33:12 06/04/01
Go up one level in this thread
On June 05, 2001 at 00:16:18, william penn wrote:
>On June 04, 2001 at 23:56:30, Slater Wold wrote:
>
>>On June 04, 2001 at 23:16:07, Mark Young wrote:
>>
>>>On June 04, 2001 at 22:37:54, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 04, 2001 at 11:08:11, Mark Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 04, 2001 at 10:34:36, Slater Wold wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>This is the annotated game by Petr. Look like Mark was correct, 10...Bxf3 was
>>>>>>the correct move as well as 10...Be6 or 10...Bh5. Shredder was lost, bottom
>>>>>>line.
>>>>>
>>>>>I can't be wrong all the time:)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I doubt that _one_ move lost the game. It was the _group_ of bad moves that
>>>>made it hopeless.. Against a good GM you can't toss a tempi here, a tempi
>>>>there, and expect to do anything but get tossed overboard yourself. :)
>>
>>I agree. Moves 9-14 Shredder sat back and watched a 2500+ player mound an
>>attack on it, while it silently sat back and moves pieces back and forth. I've
>>played well over 1,000 games with Shredder, and have NEVER seen it play this
>>poorly.
>>
>>>>
>>>>Of course, the computers are all super-GM players, so this discussion really
>>>>is _not_ happening. :)
>>
>>Yes, I believe Peter gave Shredder the super-GM ELO of 2100-2200.
>>
>>>
>>>Who said "all" computers are super-GM players. :)
>>>
>>>The only computers that "could" try and claim that they are Super-GM Players are
>>>Deep Blue, and Deep Junior. We will have to wait and see what Fritz 7 can do.
>>
>>Computers that can claim GM status: Deep Blue.
>>
>>Programs that can claim GM status: Yet to be answered.
>>
>>>
>>>Many programs are GM strength(> 2500 elo), but Super-GM...I don't think so
>>>either.
>>
>>Well, Deep Fritz sits atop the SSDF list right now with something like a 2700+
>>rating. And remember, Deep Shredder is the "best", therefore meaning it should
>>be at least even with Deep Fritz. A 2500 GM played it, killed it, and then said
>>it was a 2100-2200 player. I think a LOT of people are a little too giving when
>
>
> HOW can this grandmaster make this claim based on one game? Sounds to me like
>he is one of those group of grandmasters that are threatened by the growing
>strength of computers. By the way Gm Dreev after drawing this same deep shredder
>says that it would get a highier elo than 2500 if it competes in fide
>tournaments. Who's opinion would you take a 2541 grandmaster or a 2650 elo Gm
>who has played more than one game, but many games at 40/2, so far he has played
>three 40/2 games vs deep shredder. Go to the rebel page and you will hear other
>grandmasters say the same thing. I am willing to bet that this grandmaster that
>you played, has a certain system he uses regulary to beat computers, so he
>basically wins the same type of game more than once. This has nothing to do with
>chess strength, for if the computer was conscious it would avoid such lines
Well, your last sentence sums it up. "for if the computer was conscious it
would avoid such lines" I think that's what determines ELO. The ability to
avoid certain lines. :)
Dreev played 3 games against Deep Fritz, and beat it 2.5-0.5. He is without a
doubt the better player of the two GM's, however, it's not just not possible
that a home computer can come close to Super-GM strength. I would guess, do to
it's lack of conscious.
Also, you are absolutly correct. He played Deep Shredder 1 game. And when I
asked him the question directly, I asked, "What would you rate the performance
ELO of the computer in this game." He replied, "2100-2200 FIDE" That's what
this post is about. Just 1 game. Not a series of them.
And yes, Peter does consistatly play D35 and D36 against chess computers. As do
a lot of people. It's a newer approcach to beating computers. This was said in
an earlier post. However, what does Kramnik consistatly play against Kasparov
as black? YES! The Berlin! (Anyone check if Kaspy is still conscious?) And it
works, and you stick with what works. I won't hold a grudge cause a GM can kick
my 'puter's ass. Even if he plays the same line over and over. If my program
is dumb enough to lose everytime, well then that just tells me how much further
it REALLY is from Super-GM stregth.
In a nutshell: Computers are not Super-GM strength. Especially not on home
computers. And in the war against Man vs Machine, man is still winning. Sure,
computers win a battle here and there, however man is still winning the war, for
now.
Slate
>
>
>>they go handing out computer programs ELO's. I cannot comment about Deep
>>Junior, I have seen very FEW games involving Deep Junior and humans, but I know
>>it's not a terrific Computer vs Computer player. Or at least, not top 3 or 4.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "ICC 30 10 u"]
>>>>>>[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
>>>>>>[Date "2001.06.02"]
>>>>>>[Round "-"]
>>>>>>[White "Petrovich"]
>>>>>>[Black "Project"]
>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2498"]
>>>>>>[BlackElo "2523"]
>>>>>>[Opening "QGD: exchange, positional line, 5...c6"]
>>>>>>[ECO "D35"]
>>>>>>[NIC "QO.16"]
>>>>>>[Time "09:05:56"]
>>>>>>[TimeControl "1800+10"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6
>>>>>>(6...Be7 or 6...Bf5!? ) 7. Bh4 Be7 8.
>>>>>>Bd3 O-O 9. Nf3 Bg4(9....Nbd7+= , i think h7-h6 was unnecessary move)
>>>>>>10. h3 Bc8? (10..Bxf3 11.Qxf3+=; 10...Bh5 11.g4!?; 10...Be6+=) 11. Qc2 Bd6?
>>>>>>(11...Nbd7, 12...Re8, 13....Nf8)
>>>>>> 12. Ne5 Qe7 13. f4 White is clear better . Qd8
>>>>>>(Black has no good choice ) 14. O-O Be7
>>>>>>15. Rae1 Nbd7 16. g4 Nb6 17. Qg2 Be6? 18. Bb1 Re8 19. Qc2 Kf8 20. g5
>>>>>>white has decisive advantage
>>>>>>Bxh3 21.
>>>>>>gxf6 Bxf6 22. Bxf6 Qxf6 23. Rf3 Qh4 24. Qf2!
>>>>>>( there are no chances for black in queenless position :)
>>>>>> Qxf2+ 25. Kxf2 Bc8 26. Rg3 f6
>>>>>>27. Ng6+ Kf7 28. b3 a5 29. a4 Bd7 30. f5!
>>>>>>(xg7 is a weakest point ) Nc8 31. Reg1 Rg8 32. Nf4 Nd6 33.
>>>>>>Nh5 Ne8 34. Bd3 Kf8 35. e4 dxe4 36. Bc4 Rh8 37. Nxg7 Nd6 38. Ne6+ Bxe6 39.
>>>>>>Bxe6 e3+ 40. Kxe3 Re8 41. Ne4 Rxe6 42. fxe6 Nf5+ 43. Kf4 Nxg3 44. Rxg3 h5
>>>>>>45. Nxf6 h4 46. Rh3 Ke7 47. Ke5 {Black resigns} 1-0
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Enjoy. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Slate
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