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Subject: Re: Endgame position from game; can Black draw?

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 14:34:56 06/09/01

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On June 09, 2001 at 16:18:45, Rafael Andrist wrote:

>On June 09, 2001 at 10:55:23, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On June 09, 2001 at 09:00:28, Rafael Andrist wrote:
>>
>>>In a game (20 sec/move) between "Der Bringer" and my program occured this
>>>endgame position. My program - playing as Black - sees only a small advantage
>>>for White, but it looses. Is it possible to draw the endgame or was the game
>>>already lost before?
>>>
>>>[D]6k1/pB2pp1p/6p1/8/4P3/5K2/r5PP/3R4 b - - 1 30
>>>
>>>the game continued:
>>>30. ... Kg7 31. e5 Ra5 32. Ke4 e6 33. Rd7 Ra4+ 34. Ke3 Ra3+ 35. Kf4 h6 36. Bc6
>>>g5+ 37. Ke4 Rc3 38. Ba8 a5 39. Ra7 Ra3 40. Bc6 Ra2 41. Be8 Re2+ 42. Kd4 Rd2+ 43.
>>>Ke3 Rxg2 44. Bxf7 Rxh2 45. Bxe6+ Kg6 46. Rxa5 Rh1 47. Ke2 Kh5 48. Bf5 Rh2+ 49.
>>>Ke3 Rh1 50. e6 Kh4 51. e7 Re1+ 52. Kf3 Rxe7 53. Ra4+ Kh5 54. Ra1 g4+ 55. Kf4 Re3
>>>56. Rh1+ Rh3 57. Bxg4+ Kg6 58. Rxh3 Kg7 59. Bf5 Kf6 60. Rxh6+ Kg7 61. Kg5 Kf7
>>>62. Re6 Kf8 63. Kg6 Kg8 64. Re8# 1-0
>>>
>>>Maybe it is easier for humans than for computers to judge this position
>>>correctly, but I am a too weak player to do that.
>>>
>>>Rafael B. Andrist
>>
>>It is easy for computers to see a clear advantage for white.
>>
>>I tried some program and they see at least 1.xx for white.
>>
>
>I tried other programs too, but an advantage around 1 is not an easy win. So
>there exists a good chance to draw the position. Also, none of them showed a
>clear "plan" how to win this.
>
>>I believe that your program overevaluate pawns so you may try to reduce the
>>value of pawns.
>
>Yes, I know that I give a little bit to big bonuses for passers etc. The pawn
>value itself is not the problem. I don't think that a bishop is really more
>worth than 3 pawns.

I believe that a bishop in most of the cases worth more than 3 pawns(3 pawns may
draw often against a bishop but they also may lose often against a bishop and
cases when they can win are rare if there are no advanced passed pawns but in
this case your program may see other positional bonuses).

I know that one of the changes in Junior6 relative to Junior5 was to reduce the
value of the pawn.

I guess that giving pawns and passed pawns 80% of the value that you give them
can help your program to get better results in games.

Uri



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