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Subject: Re: A question for programmers of top chess programs

Author: Frank Phillips

Date: 01:45:32 06/17/01

Go up one level in this thread


On June 17, 2001 at 04:11:26, Uri Blass wrote:

>Are there top programs that are designed to see always simple tactics after
>enough time?
>
>Is it possible to change them to see always simple tactics after enough time
>when the price is only being 0.1% slower by using 2 engines when one engine is
>usually used only for only 0.1% of the time or maybe my math is wrong and only
>using another engine makes the program already more than 0.1% slower because of
>the fact that the program is bigger(even if the other engine is simply the
>original engine without null move pruning)?
>
>The position in the end of my post can happen in a game(it happened in an
>engine-engine game when I started from one of the position from my
>correspondence games).
>
>Deep Fritz could not see simple tactics because of null move pruning(with
>selectivity=0 Deep fritz has no problem to see more than 10 pawns advantage for
>black by Nc6 but with null move pruning Nc6 failed low again and again and fritz
>change it's mind to Ke3 when it is not clear if black can win after this move).
>
>I remember that Amir Ban said about other rare cases when Junior cannot see
>simple tactics that it is not a bug and I understand that he is not going to fix
>it so I wonder if there is a top program that is designed to see always simple
>tactics after enough time.
>
>
>New position
>[D]1n6/1P6/8/2P5/p3kp1p/6p1/1P4K1/4N3 b - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Deep Fritz:
>
>1...a3--
>  ³  (-0.31)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...a3--
>  ³  (-0.31)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...f3+!
>  ³  (-0.38)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...h3+!
>  ³  (-0.50)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...h3+! 2.Kxh3
>  µ  (-0.91)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...Nc6!
>  -+  (-1.69)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...Nc6!
>  -+  (-2.13)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-1.81)   Depth: 2/4   00:00:00
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-1.81)   Depth: 2/4   00:00:00
>1...Kd4!
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 2/6   00:00:00
>1...Kd4! 2.Nf3+
>  -+  (-2.22)   Depth: 2/6   00:00:00
>1...Kd4 2.Nf3+ Kxc5 3.Nxh4
>  -+  (-2.22)   Depth: 3/8   00:00:00
>1...Kd4 2.Nf3+ Kxc5 3.Nxh4 Kd5
>  -+  (-2.22)   Depth: 4/10   00:00:00
>1...Kd4 2.Nf3+ Kxc5 3.Nxh4 Kc6 4.Ng6
>  -+  (-1.97)   Depth: 5/11   00:00:00
>1...Kd4--
>  -+  (-1.66)   Depth: 6/12   00:00:00  2kN
>1...Kd4-- 2.Nf3+ Kxc5 3.Nxh4 Kc6 4.Ng6 Kxb7
>  -+  (-1.47)   Depth: 6/13   00:00:00  2kN
>1...Kd5!
>  -+  (-1.50)   Depth: 6/13   00:00:00  2kN
>1...Kd5! 2.Nd3 Kd4 3.Nxf4 Kxc5 4.Ne6+ Kd6
>  -+  (-1.75)   Depth: 6/13   00:00:00  3kN
>1...Nc6!
>  -+  (-1.78)   Depth: 6/13   00:00:00  4kN
>1...Nc6! 2.Kh3 f3 3.Nxf3
>  -+  (-2.13)   Depth: 6/13   00:00:00  6kN
>1...Nc6 2.Kh3 f3 3.Nxf3 Kxf3 4.Kxh4 g2
>  -+  (-2.41)   Depth: 7/15   00:00:00  8kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 8/10   00:00:00  10kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 8/18   00:00:00  12kN
>1...Nc6!
>  -+  (-2.41)   Depth: 9/17   00:00:00  28kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 10/14   00:00:00  37kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 10/19   00:00:00  45kN
>1...Nc6!
>  -+  (-2.41)   Depth: 11/20   00:00:00  87kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 12/21   00:00:00  128kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-2.09)   Depth: 12/24   00:00:00  172kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-1.78)   Depth: 13/21   00:00:00  261kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-1.78)   Depth: 13/26   00:00:00  377kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-1.47)   Depth: 14/24   00:00:01  660kN
>1...Nc6--
>  -+  (-1.47)   Depth: 14/28   00:00:01  922kN
>1...Nc6--
>  µ  (-1.16)   Depth: 15/27   00:00:02  1600kN
>1...Nc6--
>  µ  (-1.16)   Depth: 15/30   00:00:03  2180kN
>1...Nc6--
>  µ  (-0.84)   Depth: 16/29   00:00:05  3386kN
>1...Nc6--
>  µ  (-0.84)   Depth: 16/30   00:00:06  4622kN
>1...Ke3!
>  µ  (-0.88)   Depth: 16/35   00:00:11  7839kN
>1...Ke3! 2.Nc2+ Kd3 3.c6 Nxc6 4.Nb4+ Ke2 5.Nxc6 f3+ 6.Kh3 f2 7.b8Q
>  µ  (-0.97)   Depth: 16/39   00:00:13  9840kN, tb=1
>1...Ke3 2.Nc2+ Kd3 3.c6 Nxc6 4.Nb4+ Ke2 5.Nxc6 f3+ 6.Kh3 f2 7.b8Q
>  µ  (-0.88)   Depth: 17/37   00:00:23  17184kN, tb=4
>
>(blass, telaviv 16.06.2001)
>
>Uri


Uri

I am slightly confused: are you saying that Nc6 is wrong?  With null move on, my
program thinks it is a big win.

Frank

5/10    286    0.1      2466	 1. .. Nc6
 5/10    256    0.1      3320	 1. .. Nc6
 5/10    286    0.1      4560	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Nxf3 Kxf3 4. Kxh4
 6/ 9    286    0.1      5913	 1. .. Nc6
 6/12    256    0.1      7745	 1. .. Nc6
 6/12    354    0.1     10868	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Nxf3 Kxf3 4. Kxh4 g2
 7/10    354    0.1     12255	 1. .. Nc6
 7/14    324    0.1     16745	 1. .. Nc6
 7/14    480    0.2     26764	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Nc2 f2 4. Kg2 h3+ 5. Kf1
Nb8
 8/12    480    0.2     28866	 1. .. Nc6
 8/16    398    0.2     43684	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Nc2 f2 4. Kg2 a3 5. bxa3
h3+ 6. Kf1
 9/16    428    0.2     59399	 1. .. Nc6
 9/17    607    0.4    130457	 1. .. Nc6 2. b8=Q Nxb8 3. c6 Nxc6 4. Kh3 f3 5.
Kxh4 Kf4 6. Nxf3 Kxf3
10/25    607    0.7    242176	 1. .. Nc6
10/25    577    0.7    273891	 1. .. Nc6
10/25    790    1.0    398284	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kf1 f3 3. Nxf3 Kxf3 4. Kg1 h3 5. Kh1
Kf2 6. b8=Q Nxb8
11/20    820    1.2    519319	 1. .. Nc6
11/25    820    2.4    943058	 1. .. Nc6
11/25    861    2.5   1000768	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kg1 f3 3. Nxf3 Kxf3 4. b8=Q Nxb8
12/22    891    2.9   1168086	 1. .. Nc6
12/27   1055    4.6   2003512	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kg1 f3 3. Nxf3 Kxf3 4. b8=Q Nxb8 5.
c6 Nxc6 6. Kf1 h3 7. Kg1 Nd4 8. Kf1
13/26   1085    5.7   2435863	 1. .. Nc6
13/28   1178   10.1   4166248	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Ng2 f2 4. Kxh4 Kf3 5. b8=Q
Nxb8 6. Ne3 Kxe3 7. Kxg3 f1=Q 8. Kg4
14/27   1208   13.1   5168547	 1. .. Nc6
14/31   1226   20.5   8194403	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Ng2 f2 4. b8=Q Nxb8 5.
Nxh4 f1=Q+ 6. Kxg3 Qf4+ 7. Kh3 Kd4 8. Ng2 Qf3+ 9. Kh2 Kxc5
15/29   1256   26.4  10307851	 1. .. Nc6
15/33   1268   49.1  19906744	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Ng2 f2 4. Nxh4 f1=Q+ 5.
Kxg3 Qb5 6. Nf3 Qxb7 7. Nd2+ Kd4 8. b3 axb3 9. Nxb3+ Qxb3+ 10. Kg4 Qd5 11. Kf4
16/30   1298   56.3  22269830	 1. .. Nc6
16/34   1363  110.6  44903729	 1. .. Nc6 2. Kh3 f3 3. Ng2 f2 4. Nxh4 f1=Q+ 5.
Kxg3 Qb5 6. Ng6 Qxc5 7. Nh4 Qe5+ 8. Kg4 Qxb2 9. Nf5 Ne5+ 10. Kg5 Nf3+ 11. Kg6
Qxb7




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