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Subject: Re: A logical look at how Dr. Hyatt and others want to cherry pick data.

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 09:52:40 06/19/01

Go up one level in this thread

On June 19, 2001 at 10:30:36, Mark Young wrote:

>The argument that Dr Hyatt and others are using in the data is skewed because
>some of the grandmasters are too old in the ratings list, and these old
>grandmasters are no longer playing at a GM Level. This is suppressing the
>average GM rating.
>
>Some Logical inconsistencies in this argument:
>
>I. At what rating do we exclude old Grandmasters? They have sited 2 Grandmasters
>GM Bent Larsen 2487 Elo age 61 and GM Vassily Smyslov 2491 age 80. Are they
>objecting because the players are not rated high enough to be considered GM's
>any more? If this is the case does this mean we also exclude all the younger GM
>players also that have ratings below them no matter what the age of the
>Grandmaster may be.
>Below is the list of grandmasters that must be excluded by this logic. Note the
>age on many of the GM?s they are not old, some are around 20 years of age. At
>what thresh hold rating does Bob Hyatt consider a player no longer playing at a
>GM level? If GM Smyslov is the standard, then does this mean anyone playing over
>2491 elo is a grandmaster including Computers?
>
>II. If age is the objection, at what age do we exclude GM?s. Are we to exclude
>GM Viktor Korchnoi age 70 rated 2643. GM Korchnoi is clearly older then GM
>Larsen. Who do we exclude because of age. GM Gluko,
>GM Karpov, GM Huebner all older Gm players for sure. When you start cherry
>picking data as they insist on you run into many such conflicts in logic.


All you have to do is use "logic".  If a player was once 2600, and is now 2400
you _might_ consider that his playing skills have gone down.  Way down.  If a
GM was 2650 20 years ago, and is _still_ active and _still_ 2650 today, then
you _might_ assume that his skill has not started downhill yet.

You are too preoccupied with exact numbers.  Where "logic" will suffice just
fine.  IE we could get a rating for Capablanca today.  Just pull up to his
grave, and start a game.  He will lose on time.  And will end up with a
rating of zero.  You might assume his skills have diminished a bit over the
years, or you could use that rating to make some kind of point.

I don't have any idea what you are trying to prove.  I clearly said that a GM
has to produce a real rating of 2500 or higher, _and_ he has to produce a
performance rating of 2600 over a bunch of games..  And then he gets the GM
title regardless of where his rating rises or falls to.

Where is this supposed to be going?



>
>
>624 Smyslov, Vassily  g RUS 2491 24.03.21 M
>625 Kekelidze, Mikheil  g GEO 2491 14.09.74 M
>628 Dervishi, Erald  g ALB 2491 10.11.79 M
>630 Finkel, Alexander  g ISR 2490 01.01.75 M
>631 Liang, Jinrong  g CHN 2490 21.05.60 M
>633 Matanovic, Aleksandar  g YUG 2490 23.05.30 M
>634 Garcia, Gildardo  g COL 2490 09.03.54 M
>635 McShane, Luke J.  g ENG 2490 07.01.84 M
>636 Drazic, Sinisa  g YUG 2490 16.12.67 M
>637 Klovans, Janis  g LAT 2490 09.04.35 M
>639 Rajkovic, Dusan  g YUG 2490 17.06.42 M
>640 Al-Modiahki, Mohamad  g QAT 2490 01.06.74 M
>646 Iuldachev, Saidali  g UZB 2489 31.01.68 M
>647 Schmittdiel, Eckhard  g GER 2489 13.05.60 M
>648 Kishnev, Sergey  g RUS 2489 01.11.56 M
>649 Palatnik, Semon  g USA 2489 26.03.50 M
>652 Guseinov, Aidyn  g AZE 2489   M
>654 Grivas, Efstratios  g GRE 2489 30.03.66 M
>657 Mestel, A. Jonathan  g ENG 2488 13.03.57 M
>658 Vorobiov, Evgeny E.  g RUS 2488 13.12.76 M
>665 Larsen, Bent  g DEN 2487 04.03.35 M
>666 Abramovic, Bosko  g YUG 2487 14.02.51 M
>669 Zakharevich, Igor  g RUS 2487 14.07.63 M
>670 Zarnicki, Pablo  g ARG 2487 12.11.72 M
>673 Gutman, Lev  g GER 2486 26.09.45 M
>675 Janjgava, Lasha  g GEO 2486 05.05.70 M
>677 Lopushnoy, Denis  g RUS 2485 30.01.77 M
>679 Krogius, Nikolai V  g RUS 2485 22.07.30 M
>680 Antic, Dejan  g YUG 2485 09.12.68 M
>681 Farago, Ivan  g HUN 2485 01.04.46 M
>682 Ashley, Maurice  g USA 2484 06.03.66 M
>683 Velimirovic, Dragoljub  g YUG 2484 12.05.42 M
>686 Relange, Eloi  g FRA 2484 01.07.76 M
>688 Jaracz, Pawel  g POL 2484 22.07.75 M
>691 Kogan, Artur  g ISR 2484 29.01.74 M
>692 Djuric, Stefan  g YUG 2483 26.07.55 M
>693 Lanka, Zigurds  g LAT 2483 21.05.60 M
>695 Ivanovic, Bozidar  g YUG 2483 24.08.49 M
>697 Meduna, Eduard  g CZE 2483 11.09.50 M
>698 Groszpeter, Attila  g HUN 2483 09.06.60 M
>703 Inkiov, Ventzislav  g BUL 2482 19.05.56 M
>704 Urday, Henry  g PER 2482 05.07.67 M
>705 Brunner, Lucas  g SUI 2482 29.05.67 M
>707 Balinov, Ilija  g AUT 2482 28.07.66 M
>710 Zilberman, Yaacov  g ISR 2481 26.05.54 M
>716 Hatanbaatar, Bazar  g MGL 2481 25.02.73 M
>718 Gligoric, Svetozar  g YUG 2481 02.02.23 M
>724 Parma, Bruno  g SLO 2480 30.12.41 M
>725 Vokac, Marek  g CZE 2480 06.12.58 M
>729 Gausel, Einar  g NOR 2480 30.11.63 M
>730 Rodriguez, Amador  g CUB 2480 08.09.56 M
>731 Efimov, Igor  g ITA 2480 16.09.60 M
>734 Mohr, Georg  g SLO 2480 02.02.65 M
>740 Stangl, Markus  g GER 2479 29.04.69 M
>741 Garcia Ilundain, David  g ESP 2479 02.04.71 M
>745 Ermenkov, Evgenij  g BUL 2478 29.09.49 M
>747 Gheorghiu, Florin  g ROM 2478 06.04.44 M
>749 Keitlinghaus, Ludger  g GER 2478 24.07.65 M
>753 Todorcevic, Miodrag  g YUG 2478 10.11.40 M
>760 Pfleger, Helmut Dr.  g GER 2477 06.08.43 M
>761 Legky, Nikolay A  g UKR 2477 11.04.55 M
>762 Nikcevic, Nebojsa  g YUG 2476   M
>763 Karlsson, Lars  g SWE 2476 11.07.55 M
>764 Asanov, Bolat  g KAZ 2476 07.05.61 M
>766 Tyomkin, Dimitri  g ISR 2476 25.03.77 M
>767 Gurevich, Vladimir  g UKR 2476 04.08.59 M
>769 Flear, Glenn C.  g ENG 2476 12.02.59 M
>776 Lazic, Miroljub  g YUG 2475 28.06.66 M
>781 Rodriguez, Orestes  g ESP 2474 04.07.43 M
>784 Djurhuus, Rune  g NOR 2474 25.01.70 M
>791 Miralles, Gilles  g FRA 2473 08.02.66 M
>793 Olafsson, Helgi  g ISL 2473 15.08.56 M
>794 Gunawan, Ruben  g INA 2473 17.04.68 M
>796 Kouatly, Bachar  g FRA 2473 03.03.58 M
>800 Mainka, Romuald  g GER 2472 15.05.63 M
>802 Komljenovic, Davor  g CRO 2472 01.07.44 M
>803 Sherzer, Alex  g USA 2472 01.02.71 M
>804 Yandemirov, Valeri  g RUS 2472 11.02.63 M
>818 Panno, Oscar  g ARG 2471 17.03.35 M
>823 Raicevic, Vladimir  g YUG 2470 02.05.49 M
>824 Garcia Palermo, Carlos  g ARG 2470 02.12.53 M
>826 Evans, Larry M.  g USA 2470 22.03.32 M
>827 Petrosian, Arshak B  g ARM 2470 16.12.53 M
>832 Jansa, Vlastimil  g CZE 2470 27.11.42 M
>836 Teske, Henrik  g GER 2469 28.02.68 M
>838 Zlochevskij, Alexander  g ITA 2469 25.06.63 M
>841 Anic, Darko  g FRA 2469 30.04.57 M
>842 Davies, Nigel R  g ENG 2469 31.07.60 M
>845 Mokry, Karel  g CZE 2469 07.02.59 M
>846 Popchev, Milko  g BUL 2469 11.11.64 M
>850 Chernikov, Oleg L  g RUS 2468 15.10.36 M
>853 Shaked, Tal  g USA 2468 05.02.78 M
>870 Gufeld, Eduard  g USA 2466 19.03.36 M
>871 Zagrebelny, Sergey  g UZB 2466   M
>872 De La Villa Garcia, Jesus M.  g ESP 2466 30.06.58 M
>878 Vogt, Lothar  g GER 2465 17.01.52 M
>889 Fernandez Garcia, Jose Luis  g ESP 2465 03.05.54 M
>891 Filip, Miroslav  g CZE 2465 27.10.28 M
>892 Cebalo, Miso  g CRO 2465 06.02.45 M
>900 Beshukov, Sergei  g RUS 2463 01.04.71 M
>902 Akesson, Ralf  g SWE 2463 08.02.61 M
>904 Bogdanovski, Vlatko  g MKD 2463 31.12.64 M
>908 Sigurjonsson, Gudmundur  g ISL 2463 25.09.47 M
>924 Haba, Petr  g CZE 2461 06.01.65 M
>925 Plaskett, Jim  g ENG 2461 18.03.60 M
>929 Olafsson, Fridrik  g ISL 2460 26.01.35 M
>931 De Vreugt, Dennis  g NED 2460 04.11.80 M
>948 Lukacs, Peter  g HUN 2458 09.07.50 M
>952 Lupu, Mircea-Sergiu  g FRA 2458 28.08.62 M
>960 Murshed, Niaz  g BAN 2457 13.05.66 M
>984 Anagnostopoulos, Dimitri  g GRE 2455 11.06.70 M
>987 Keene, Raymond D.  g ENG 2455 29.01.48 M
>993 Lombardy, William J  g USA 2455 04.12.37 M

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