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Subject: Re: Chess Tiger & Fritz - question re nps vs. chess knowledge

Author: martin fierz

Date: 06:39:00 06/21/01

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On June 21, 2001 at 09:28:32, Uri Blass wrote:

>On June 21, 2001 at 05:56:46, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On June 20, 2001 at 14:25:03, John Hatcher wrote:
>>
>>>Maybe the answer to my question is obvious, but I'd be interested in what
>>>programmers have to say on the subject.
>>>
>>>I've recently been running matches between Fritz6 and Chess Tiger.  On my old
>>>Celeron 333mhz computer Fritz6 runs at about 250 knps, and Chess Tiger runs at
>>>about 80-100 knps.  To my delight, and surprise, Chess Tiger is doing very well
>>>against Fritz - very well.
>>>
>>>Since, as I understand it, "nps" is related (at least nominally) to search depth
>>>in a given time period, it would seem that, all things being equal, the greater
>>>the "nps" the stronger the program.
>>>
>>>Of course, things are never really equal between two programs.  As evidence of
>>>that, Chess Tiger with its lower nps holds its own quite nicely against Fritz.
>>>For this to happen it would seem that Chess Tiger must have some chess
>>>"knowledge" programmed into it that allows it go toe-to-toe with a program that
>>>searches 2.5x as many positions per second.
>>>
>>>Is the programming of this chess knowledge, even among the programmers of top
>>>commercial programs, still as much art as science so that the programmer of
>>>Chess Tiger has found a "smarter", more efficient way to implement chess
>>>knowledge into Chess Tiger.  I guess I supposed that much of this knowledge
>>>would be common currency by now.
>>>
>>>Sorry for the long-winded question.  I wanted to be clear.
>>>
>>>JOHN
>>
>>in my checkers program, i have various move ordering schemes. if i turn them on,
>>i get much less nodes/seconds, but i can search deeper all the same. the
>>same goes for ETC - using it lowers nodes/sec, but has a net positive effect.
>>i can choose to run my program at 1.1MN/sec without these things or at 750kN/sec
>>with them, and it's better in the 'slow' mode.
>>there may also be a big difference in the eval. i know fritz does something fast
>>but stupid: before starting the search, it assigns pieces values depending on
>>which square they are. these values remain unchanged during the search (AFAIK).
>>the result is a fast search but a dumb evaluation - i'm sure they tested it and
>>found it to be ok, but it can be very irritating at times.
>
>I am sure they testeed it and found it not o.k and this is the reason that Deep
>Fritz or Fritz6a almost do not do it.
>
>
> it is of course
>>well-known that if you have a king which is not too safe, you should try to
>>exchange queens. fritz eval understands this, and gives the attacking side a
>>bonus - BUT: in the lookahead, it keeps this in, even if the queens are traded.
>>it will evaluate a line with a queen trade as +1 for the side with the safe
>>king, but once the queen is gone, it will suddenly say 'equal' - which is
>>correct, but it didnt see it in the lookahead. i find this very disconcerting
>>when analyzing games with fritz...
>
>It seems that you have an old Fritz version.
>I do not see it with my Deep Fritz.
>
>Uri

that's great! i only have the fritz 5.32 that comes with chessbase 8 and if find
it a nuisance when analysing games that it does this. i didnt know that the
newer fritzes stopped doing it.

cheers
  martin



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