Author: Chessfun
Date: 10:55:50 06/26/01
Go up one level in this thread
On June 26, 2001 at 13:11:23, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On June 26, 2001 at 09:39:03, Chessfun wrote: > >>On June 26, 2001 at 09:25:16, Mark Young wrote: >> >>>On June 26, 2001 at 09:14:19, Chessfun wrote: >>> >>>>On June 26, 2001 at 09:09:43, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 09:01:43, Chessfun wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 08:47:39, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 08:40:58, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 08:09:58, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 07:14:55, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 06:25:16, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On June 26, 2001 at 00:17:21, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On June 25, 2001 at 22:01:57, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 25, 2001 at 21:54:07, Mike S. wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 25, 2001 at 18:15:41, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The results are bogus anyway, I can sit at home and win games as he did....Let >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>me run the computer against Eduard....I bet the results would be much different. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why does he not play a 20 game match, the computer will learn what he is doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and pick a different way of playing against 2.Na3 Then he is toast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>What matters then, is the single game (each) with a brilliant win against the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>program, and not, if the learning feature may avoid repetition (or if some games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>may be lost beforehand). That's not the point, but that these games can happen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>at least once on each computer. I would be glad if I were capable of winning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>such games regularly (I have some, but very few old one's). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Furthermore, why call the results bogus, unless you have evidence that these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>games aren't reproduceable or possible? That's not quite fair IMO. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>The point is we are talking about games under tournament conditions, not games >>>>>>>>>>>>>sitting at home at blitz times, with no controls. Anyone can sit, play with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>program, and produce games like this, but its not the same when you don't have >>>>>>>>>>>>>control of the screen, program, and the settings of the program. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>To me I see a different point. >>>>>>>>>>>>Try playing a GM 50 times and see how many you'll win. >>>>>>>>>>>>Forget the time controls for a second as IMO Eduard could easily >>>>>>>>>>>>repeat this at tournament controls as I feel I also could. >>>>>>>>>>>>Computers are known for being better at blitz than GM's simply log >>>>>>>>>>>>onto ICC and have a look. With a computer once you find the path to >>>>>>>>>>>>the win in most cases the path remains open. Simply play out of book >>>>>>>>>>>>asap if you win the computer in all liklihood will repeat it's same mistakes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Try that against a GM. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>You tell me a GM who is willing to be exploited like we can the computer >>>>>>>>>>>programs, and I might be able to produce a draw or a win also. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Can I program holes in the human GMs book to let me FOOLS mate him. :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>You can't "fools mate" any current program. Most program books are clearly >>>>>>>>>>good enough and most strong humans who play them play book lines to about 15 >>>>>>>>>>moves. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Now there are *rules* on how you can exploit the programs....I see. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What are you talking about?. >>>>>>>>Show me any quick mate against a pc, typically they are all out >>>>>>>>of book not in book. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Show me some program holes that allow remember the word you used, "fools mate". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Easy, the program allows me to program book lines. The program allows >>>>>>>this...yes. I can choose anyway I wish to exploit the program as you guys have >>>>>>>done....Unless you are saying there are now rules on how we can exploit the >>>>>>>program. >>>>>> >>>>>>The rules to me are simple. >>>>>>Take program x use program x's opening book. >>>>>>What is the point of programming a book line to allow "fools mate". >>>>>> >>>>>>I have seen no posted game where something like that has been done?. >>>>>>or to quote you "as you guys have done." so please show me?. >>>>> >>>>>What are you talking about, we are talking about ways to exploit the computer >>>>>program, my way is just easier, but it has the same result and standing. >>>> >>>>Your way IMO is a simple waste of time. >>>>Again I quote "as you guys have done." so please show me?. >>> >>>Check with Eduard! Because his method is just a way to exploit the programs. And >>>you seem to agree with it. no... >> >>There is nothing wrong with what Eduard did. >>He used standard opening books. That isn't the same as making a losing book >>line. He takes the PC quickly out of book so what's wrong with that?. >> >>Sarah. > > >Not a thing. Only questions to be answered are these: > >1. How many games did it take to find a "win" after 2. Na3?! ?? > >2. Were any takebacks used? > >3. Can it be repeated under controlled conditions, such as playing against >a program on ICC where the program (and its analysis/etc) are remote and can >not be seen? > >I would not claim that any or all of those were done. But I would suspect that >at least question 1 is relevant and perhaps question 2. Definately all valid points as are; 1. How many games would it take to find a "win" v a GM using 2. Na3!? 2. If he let you have any takebacks could you still win any?. 3. If you managed a win with 50 takebacks v a GM could that be repeated :-) Sarah.
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