Author: Uri Blass
Date: 00:28:14 07/07/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 06, 2001 at 23:26:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 06, 2001 at 20:37:53, odell hall wrote: > >>On July 06, 2001 at 08:28:05, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On July 06, 2001 at 05:01:13, odell hall wrote: >>> >>>>On July 06, 2001 at 04:54:02, Mogens Larsen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 06, 2001 at 00:18:54, odell hall wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>If i am not mistaken didn't roman just lose a two game match to shredder at the >>>>>>time control of 30 5, what evidence can you produce which says if humans have >>>>>>more time they win??? All the 40/2 games we have seen in the last threee years, >>>>>>does not prove that point. IN fact we have seen that even on hardware that is >>>>>>barely decent tiger has performed on the level of 2700 elo. Can you show me one >>>>>>bad result of a computer at standard time controls??? If you cannot then all you >>>>>>have is conjecture vs our facts and hard data. Even century 1 performed at 2552 >>>>>>over a period of many games, show me the results where grandmasters have gotten >>>>>>the best of the computers, do you have even one result???? >>>>> >>>>>Bob already explained why timecontrols alone don't tell the complete story. The >>>>>other aspect is the incentives to try and harness computer programs. I, for one, >>>>>can't see what those would be. The only major carrot is money as far as I can >>>>>tell and since it's not the primary source of income the effort limited IMO. In >>>>>general the games against computer programs are few and far between. Why devote >>>>>a lot of time to that? >>>>> >>>>>The GM strength discussion is a little strange in the sense that some in the >>>>>computer community thinks of it as a competition, ie. beating GMs regularly >>>>>proving strength. Unfortunately, the competitor (your average run of the mill >>>>>GM) hasn't got a clue about the "contest", so he/she generally ignores them >>>>>altogether. And since one is standing virtually still and all the programs >>>>>moving forward, there comes a point of catching up. However, this fact will not >>>>>prove anything about strength IMO. It's like running against Maurice Greene when >>>>>he's tying his shoes with his back to the track. >>>>> >>>>>Mogens. >>>> >>>> >>>>you and bob are both full of shit, bacause Ed Shoeder did offer a money >>>>incentive during the grandmaster challenge, go to the rebel home page >>> >>> >>>Two things: >>> >>>1. keep up this kind of posting and you will cease to exist here. >>> >>>2. look at the amount of money Ed offered. Compare that to the amount of money >>>available at the typical GM tournament. Then figure out which you would spend >>>more time trying to win >> >> >> I don't know about you Bob, but I am not Rich, for me 500 dollars is enough >>incentive to play my best at something that I would do for Free, To Be a >>grandmaster you have to live chess right? Explain to me why 500 dollars is not >>enough incentive for a Grandmaster to play his Best? Nowadays your average >>Grandmaster is poor, you can read about that all over the net, this amount is >>not pennies, it's not like they make the same money that other professional >>athletes make. Michael jordan would not lose to you in a one on one, even if the >>incentive was 0. > > >Simple answer. You are a GM. You have two choices: (1) study like hell to >do well at the next big tournament coming up in 6 weeks. First prize is $10,000 >(or more). (2) study like hell to win 500 bucks by playing a computer, and >throw away any chance to out-prepare your opponents for the big tournament. > >Win 500 bucks, miss out on 10,000 or more. > >Which would you _really_ do??? The fact is that there are other GM's who compete for the 10,000$ so practically the average price that the average GM expect from the tournament is clearly less than 10,000$ Most GM's are going to be very happy to earn 500$ per game so practically they cared more about the result of the game against Rebel then about the result of the game against one human. If in this conditions Rebel could get performance of more than 2500 then it is clear to me that if Fide let rebel to play in Fide tournament then it can do better(The humans will have less motivation to learn it because the practical money they can get from one game against it in a tournament is going to be less than 500$ and the hardware today is better than the hardware of Rebel in the GM challange) If Rebel or another program can get the GM norm's under these conditions(I believe that they can) than it proves that computers are GM strength and the fact that maybe humans can play better by anti computer tactics is not relevant because humans do not use anti-computer tactics. I suspect that most of the GM's with rating of less than 2650 could never become to be GM's if the opponents were motivated to win or draw against them by very big prizes. It does not mean that they are not GM strength. Uri
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