Author: Chessfun
Date: 04:50:11 07/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 11, 2001 at 07:42:49, Uri Blass wrote: >On July 11, 2001 at 06:26:29, Harald Faber wrote: > >>On July 11, 2001 at 05:52:37, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>> >>>This position is from haraled faver's games. >> >>Ähm, I don't care much if my name is not written correctly, but this spelling is >>totally wrong. :-) >>It is Harald Faber, easy, isn't it? ;-) > >yes > >I will remember in the future not to put e between the 'l' and the 'd'. > >I also found that the bug is in Junior and not in the autoplayer(see the end of >the post for proof. >> >>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>[D]r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>Junior played here 22.Nc3 >>> >>>I gave my Junior7 to anlayze the same position and it did not like Nc3 >> >> >>What hardware do you use? > >PIII800. >> >> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>> >>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 694kN >>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 Ke7 25.b3 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Bxf3 27.Rd6 Kf8 >>> = (-0.05) Depth: 12 00:00:11 8344kN >>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ng6 24.Rd4 Qb5 25.Nh4 Nxh4 26.Rxh4 Qxe5 27.Rb4 Bd5 28.Nc3 a5 >>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:06 46907kN >>>22.h3 Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc2 26.h4 Rd8 27.Nc3 Nh3+ 28.Kg2 >>>Nxf2 >>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:10 49142kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Rab8 26.Rxc8+ >>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:14 52426kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:24 58639kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:36 105349kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 Be4 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:05:12 203618kN >>> >>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>> >>>I tried to give it the same position at tournament condition and here is the >>>analysis >> >> >>What do you mean by tournament condition? > >I clicked on games,level,long game and chose 2 hours/40 moves. > >I later clicked on game and move now so junior started to calculate. > >Junior had all the game so it practically had 2 hours for less than 40 moves but >I could reproduce the same result in 1 hour/40 moves. > > >> >> >>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>> >>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 638kN >>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 >>> = (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:12 9070kN >>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Rac1 Qxc1 27.Rxc1 Rxd6 >>>28.exd6 >>> = (-0.03) Depth: 12 00:00:14 10323kN >>>22.Nc3 Qxb2 23.Ne4 Nf4 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Rab1 Qe2 26.Rxb7 Qxe4 27.Qe7 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 >>>Qc4+ 29.Ke1 Qc3+ 30.Kf1 >>> = (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:21 14864kN >>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:52 35689kN >>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:01:02 42938kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:01:39 67309kN >>> >>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>> >>> >>>Here is the analysis of Junior after 22.Nc3 >>> >>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/1q6/2NQ1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>> >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Rxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 >>> ³ (-0.42) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qxc3 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>22...Nf4 23.Qh7 Nxg2 24.Ra4 Qxb2 25.Rb1 Qxc3 26.Qh8+ Ke7 27.Rxb7+ >>> ³ (-0.29) Depth: 6 00:00:00 14kN >>>22...Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc4 26.d7 Ke7 >>> ² (0.36) Depth: 9 00:00:00 172kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 184kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 a5 26.Qd7 Rc7 27.Ra3 Qe1+ 28.Rxe1 Rxd7 >>> ³ (-0.36) Depth: 12 00:00:03 1590kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 15 00:00:29 17321kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Qa3 Qxa3 27.Rxa3 a5 28.f4 a4 >>>29.Kf2 Be4 >>> ³ (-0.59) Depth: 17 00:02:35 89481kN >>> >>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>> >>>I wonder if the reason for Nc3 was some learning from hash tables,different size >>>of hash tables, autoplayer bug or another reason(Junior used 848 seconds to >>>caluclate the move Nc3 based on the pgn) >>> >>>Uri >> >>1) Note that the first move calculated by Junior in this game (no. 5) is move >>#17. Both programs played from the book up to then. So at move #22 there is some >>moves hash inside. >>2) I used 128MB hash, which hash size did you try? > >64 Mbytes > >>3) Not Junior took 848 seconds, but Tiger took 848 sec for 21...Kf8. Sure, >>Junior moved immediately after this 848sec but Juniors move #21 was also >>immediately so I'd say all this hash/permanent brain may cause the difference. > >I understand it but Junior calculated for 848 seconds when it was tiger's move >so my statement that Junior used 848 seconds is correct. > >I agree that more hash and permanent brain can cause difference but they are >supposed to be productive and not counter productive. > >Junior has no problem to avoid Nc3 at depth 14. > >I decided to try it at game condition and was surprised to find that Junior can >play it at depth 17 with my PIII800. > >I gave it to play 21.Rfd1 at 40 moves/1 hour and let it ponder for a long time. > >This is the surprising result: > >Junior never considered Nc3 as a good move but suddenly at depth 17 found this >move. > >Junior 7 - Blass,U >r1r5/pb2kpp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Junior 7: > >22.b3 Rd8 > = (0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >22.h3 Rd8 > = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >22.Nd4 Rd8 > = (0.13) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >22.Qh7 Rd8 > ² (0.27) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >22.Qh7 Nf4 > = (0.00) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 > = (-0.12) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 > = (-0.12) Depth: 9 00:00:00 3kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 > = (-0.12) Depth: 12 00:00:00 30kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 > = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:02 830kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 > = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:00:47 30491kN >22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 > = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:04:33 178849kN >22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 > = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:06:21 245439kN >22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Qxf3 26.Rd7 Qg4+ 27.Kf1 Qh3+ 28.Ke2 >Qg4+ > = (0.00) Depth: 17 00:08:00 305132kN >22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 > ³ (-0.43) Depth: 18 00:15:15 574325kN >22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Nd4 Kf8 26.g4 > = (-0.18) Depth: 18 00:16:27 618889kN > >(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) > > >I guess that similiar analysis convinced Junior in your game except the fact >that tiger did not use enough time to let Junior to get into depth 18. It is still rather odd. Here is what I get TB 945 w/128 mb hash New position r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Junior 7: 1.Qh7 Nf4 2.Rd7 Ng6 3.Rd4 Qb5 4.Nh4 Nxh4 5.Rxh4 Qxe5 6.Rb4 Bd5 7.Nc3 a5 = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:00 46973kN 1.h3 Nf4 2.Qd6+ Qxd6 3.exd6 Bxf3 4.gxf3 Rc2 5.h4 Rd8 6.Nc3 Nh3+ 7.Kg2 Nxf2 = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:03 49207kN 1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Rab8 5.Rxc8+ = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:08 52495kN 1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:17 58710kN 1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:23 105308kN 1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 Be4 = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:04:43 201433kN 1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Nd4 Kf8 5.Rdc1 Ke7 = (-0.12) Depth: 18 00:11:44 502036kN Sarah.
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