Author: Harald Faber
Date: 04:54:14 07/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 11, 2001 at 07:50:11, Chessfun wrote: >On July 11, 2001 at 07:42:49, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On July 11, 2001 at 06:26:29, Harald Faber wrote: >> >>>On July 11, 2001 at 05:52:37, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>This position is from haraled faver's games. >>> >>>Ähm, I don't care much if my name is not written correctly, but this spelling is >>>totally wrong. :-) >>>It is Harald Faber, easy, isn't it? ;-) >> >>yes >> >>I will remember in the future not to put e between the 'l' and the 'd'. >> >>I also found that the bug is in Junior and not in the autoplayer(see the end of >>the post for proof. >>> >>>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>>[D]r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Junior played here 22.Nc3 >>>> >>>>I gave my Junior7 to anlayze the same position and it did not like Nc3 >>> >>> >>>What hardware do you use? >> >>PIII800. >>> >>> >>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>> >>>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 694kN >>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 Ke7 25.b3 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Bxf3 27.Rd6 Kf8 >>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 12 00:00:11 8344kN >>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ng6 24.Rd4 Qb5 25.Nh4 Nxh4 26.Rxh4 Qxe5 27.Rb4 Bd5 28.Nc3 a5 >>>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:06 46907kN >>>>22.h3 Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc2 26.h4 Rd8 27.Nc3 Nh3+ 28.Kg2 >>>>Nxf2 >>>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:10 49142kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Rab8 26.Rxc8+ >>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:14 52426kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:24 58639kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:36 105349kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 Be4 >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:05:12 203618kN >>>> >>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>> >>>>I tried to give it the same position at tournament condition and here is the >>>>analysis >>> >>> >>>What do you mean by tournament condition? >> >>I clicked on games,level,long game and chose 2 hours/40 moves. >> >>I later clicked on game and move now so junior started to calculate. >> >>Junior had all the game so it practically had 2 hours for less than 40 moves but >>I could reproduce the same result in 1 hour/40 moves. >> >> >>> >>> >>>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>> >>>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 638kN >>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 >>>> = (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:12 9070kN >>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Rac1 Qxc1 27.Rxc1 Rxd6 >>>>28.exd6 >>>> = (-0.03) Depth: 12 00:00:14 10323kN >>>>22.Nc3 Qxb2 23.Ne4 Nf4 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Rab1 Qe2 26.Rxb7 Qxe4 27.Qe7 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 >>>>Qc4+ 29.Ke1 Qc3+ 30.Kf1 >>>> = (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:21 14864kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:52 35689kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:01:02 42938kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:01:39 67309kN >>>> >>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>> >>>> >>>>Here is the analysis of Junior after 22.Nc3 >>>> >>>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/1q6/2NQ1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>> >>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Rxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 >>>> ³ (-0.42) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qxc3 >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>>22...Nf4 23.Qh7 Nxg2 24.Ra4 Qxb2 25.Rb1 Qxc3 26.Qh8+ Ke7 27.Rxb7+ >>>> ³ (-0.29) Depth: 6 00:00:00 14kN >>>>22...Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc4 26.d7 Ke7 >>>> ² (0.36) Depth: 9 00:00:00 172kN >>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 184kN >>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 a5 26.Qd7 Rc7 27.Ra3 Qe1+ 28.Rxe1 Rxd7 >>>> ³ (-0.36) Depth: 12 00:00:03 1590kN >>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 15 00:00:29 17321kN >>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Qa3 Qxa3 27.Rxa3 a5 28.f4 a4 >>>>29.Kf2 Be4 >>>> ³ (-0.59) Depth: 17 00:02:35 89481kN >>>> >>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>> >>>>I wonder if the reason for Nc3 was some learning from hash tables,different size >>>>of hash tables, autoplayer bug or another reason(Junior used 848 seconds to >>>>caluclate the move Nc3 based on the pgn) >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>1) Note that the first move calculated by Junior in this game (no. 5) is move >>>#17. Both programs played from the book up to then. So at move #22 there is some >>>moves hash inside. >>>2) I used 128MB hash, which hash size did you try? >> >>64 Mbytes >> >>>3) Not Junior took 848 seconds, but Tiger took 848 sec for 21...Kf8. Sure, >>>Junior moved immediately after this 848sec but Juniors move #21 was also >>>immediately so I'd say all this hash/permanent brain may cause the difference. >> >>I understand it but Junior calculated for 848 seconds when it was tiger's move >>so my statement that Junior used 848 seconds is correct. >> >>I agree that more hash and permanent brain can cause difference but they are >>supposed to be productive and not counter productive. >> >>Junior has no problem to avoid Nc3 at depth 14. >> >>I decided to try it at game condition and was surprised to find that Junior can >>play it at depth 17 with my PIII800. >> >>I gave it to play 21.Rfd1 at 40 moves/1 hour and let it ponder for a long time. >> >>This is the surprising result: >> >>Junior never considered Nc3 as a good move but suddenly at depth 17 found this >>move. >> >>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>r1r5/pb2kpp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Junior 7: >> >>22.b3 Rd8 >> = (0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>22.h3 Rd8 >> = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>22.Nd4 Rd8 >> = (0.13) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>22.Qh7 Rd8 >> ² (0.27) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>22.Qh7 Nf4 >> = (0.00) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >> = (-0.12) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >> = (-0.12) Depth: 9 00:00:00 3kN >>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >> = (-0.12) Depth: 12 00:00:00 30kN >>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:02 830kN >>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:00:47 30491kN >>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:04:33 178849kN >>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 >> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:06:21 245439kN >>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Qxf3 26.Rd7 Qg4+ 27.Kf1 Qh3+ 28.Ke2 >>Qg4+ >> = (0.00) Depth: 17 00:08:00 305132kN >>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 18 00:15:15 574325kN >>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Nd4 Kf8 26.g4 >> = (-0.18) Depth: 18 00:16:27 618889kN >> >>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >> >> >>I guess that similiar analysis convinced Junior in your game except the fact >>that tiger did not use enough time to let Junior to get into depth 18. > >It is still rather odd. > >Here is what I get TB 945 w/128 mb hash >New position >r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Junior 7: >1.Qh7 Nf4 2.Rd7 Ng6 3.Rd4 Qb5 4.Nh4 Nxh4 5.Rxh4 Qxe5 6.Rb4 Bd5 7.Nc3 a5 > = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:00 46973kN >1.h3 Nf4 2.Qd6+ Qxd6 3.exd6 Bxf3 4.gxf3 Rc2 5.h4 Rd8 6.Nc3 Nh3+ 7.Kg2 Nxf2 > = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:03 49207kN >1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Rab8 5.Rxc8+ > = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:08 52495kN >1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 > = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:17 58710kN >1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 > = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:23 105308kN >1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 Be4 > = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:04:43 201433kN >1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Nd4 Kf8 5.Rdc1 Ke7 > = (-0.12) Depth: 18 00:11:44 502036kN > >Sarah. This is not odd, look at Uri's post, you have a similar result.
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