Author: Harald Faber
Date: 05:04:53 07/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 11, 2001 at 07:42:49, Uri Blass wrote: >On July 11, 2001 at 06:26:29, Harald Faber wrote: > >>On July 11, 2001 at 05:52:37, Uri Blass wrote: >> >> >>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>[D]r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>Junior played here 22.Nc3 >>> >>>I gave my Junior7 to anlayze the same position and it did not like Nc3 >> >>What hardware do you use? > >PIII800. >> >> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>> >>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 694kN >>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 Ke7 25.b3 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Bxf3 27.Rd6 Kf8 >>> = (-0.05) Depth: 12 00:00:11 8344kN >>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ng6 24.Rd4 Qb5 25.Nh4 Nxh4 26.Rxh4 Qxe5 27.Rb4 Bd5 28.Nc3 a5 >>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:06 46907kN >>>22.h3 Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc2 26.h4 Rd8 27.Nc3 Nh3+ 28.Kg2 >>>Nxf2 >>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:10 49142kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Rab8 26.Rxc8+ >>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:14 52426kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:24 58639kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:36 105349kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 Be4 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:05:12 203618kN >>> >>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>> >>>I tried to give it the same position at tournament condition and here is the >>>analysis >> >> >>What do you mean by tournament condition? > >I clicked on games,level,long game and chose 2 hours/40 moves. > >I later clicked on game and move now so junior started to calculate. When? After the 16th black move or at move #22? >Junior had all the game so it practically had 2 hours for less than 40 moves but >I could reproduce the same result in 1 hour/40 moves. >> >> >>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>> >>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 638kN >>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 >>> = (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:12 9070kN >>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Rac1 Qxc1 27.Rxc1 Rxd6 >>>28.exd6 >>> = (-0.03) Depth: 12 00:00:14 10323kN >>>22.Nc3 Qxb2 23.Ne4 Nf4 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Rab1 Qe2 26.Rxb7 Qxe4 27.Qe7 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 >>>Qc4+ 29.Ke1 Qc3+ 30.Kf1 >>> = (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:21 14864kN >>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:52 35689kN >>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:01:02 42938kN >>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:01:39 67309kN >>> >>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>> >>> >>>Here is the analysis of Junior after 22.Nc3 >>> >>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/1q6/2NQ1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>> >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Rxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 >>> ³ (-0.42) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qxc3 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>22...Nf4 23.Qh7 Nxg2 24.Ra4 Qxb2 25.Rb1 Qxc3 26.Qh8+ Ke7 27.Rxb7+ >>> ³ (-0.29) Depth: 6 00:00:00 14kN >>>22...Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc4 26.d7 Ke7 >>> ² (0.36) Depth: 9 00:00:00 172kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 184kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 a5 26.Qd7 Rc7 27.Ra3 Qe1+ 28.Rxe1 Rxd7 >>> ³ (-0.36) Depth: 12 00:00:03 1590kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 15 00:00:29 17321kN >>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Qa3 Qxa3 27.Rxa3 a5 28.f4 a4 >>>29.Kf2 Be4 >>> ³ (-0.59) Depth: 17 00:02:35 89481kN >>> >>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>> >>>I wonder if the reason for Nc3 was some learning from hash tables,different size >>>of hash tables, autoplayer bug or another reason(Junior used 848 seconds to >>>caluclate the move Nc3 based on the pgn) >>> >>>Uri >> >>1) Note that the first move calculated by Junior in this game (no. 5) is move >>#17. Both programs played from the book up to then. So at move #22 there is some >>moves hash inside. >>2) I used 128MB hash, which hash size did you try? > >64 Mbytes > >I agree that more hash and permanent brain can cause difference but they are >supposed to be productive and not counter productive. > >Junior has no problem to avoid Nc3 at depth 14. > >I decided to try it at game condition and was surprised to find that Junior can >play it at depth 17 with my PIII800. Aha! :) >I gave it to play 21.Rfd1 at 40 moves/1 hour and let it ponder for a long time. > >This is the surprising result: Hehe, for you it may be surprising, for me it is not. :) >Junior never considered Nc3 as a good move but suddenly at depth 17 found this >move. > >Junior 7 - Blass,U >r1r5/pb2kpp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Junior 7: > > = (-0.12) Depth: 9 00:00:00 3kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 > = (-0.12) Depth: 12 00:00:00 30kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 > = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:02 830kN >22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 > = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:00:47 30491kN >22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 > = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:04:33 178849kN >22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 > = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:06:21 245439kN >22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Qxf3 26.Rd7 Qg4+ 27.Kf1 Qh3+ 28.Ke2 >Qg4+ > = (0.00) Depth: 17 00:08:00 305132kN >22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 > ³ (-0.43) Depth: 18 00:15:15 574325kN >22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Nd4 Kf8 26.g4 > = (-0.18) Depth: 18 00:16:27 618889kN > >(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) > > >I guess that similiar analysis convinced Junior in your game except the fact >that tiger did not use enough time to let Junior to get into depth 18. > >Uri Sure, as you can see from the pgn Junior moved instantly and you can see the eval and the depth which are EXACTLY the same as on your machine. So, what can we learn from this example? Analysis mode can produce different lines than real game with move history, hash and pondering so that reproducing some moves may not be possible. Indeed this is nothing new to me. :-)
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