Author: Harald Faber
Date: 07:06:51 07/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 11, 2001 at 07:57:19, Chessfun wrote: >On July 11, 2001 at 07:54:14, Harald Faber wrote: > >>On July 11, 2001 at 07:50:11, Chessfun wrote: >> >>>On July 11, 2001 at 07:42:49, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On July 11, 2001 at 06:26:29, Harald Faber wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 11, 2001 at 05:52:37, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This position is from haraled faver's games. >>>>> >>>>>Ähm, I don't care much if my name is not written correctly, but this spelling is >>>>>totally wrong. :-) >>>>>It is Harald Faber, easy, isn't it? ;-) >>>> >>>>yes >>>> >>>>I will remember in the future not to put e between the 'l' and the 'd'. >>>> >>>>I also found that the bug is in Junior and not in the autoplayer(see the end of >>>>the post for proof. >>>>> >>>>>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Junior played here 22.Nc3 >>>>>> >>>>>>I gave my Junior7 to anlayze the same position and it did not like Nc3 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>What hardware do you use? >>>> >>>>PIII800. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>>> >>>>>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 694kN >>>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 Ke7 25.b3 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Bxf3 27.Rd6 Kf8 >>>>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 12 00:00:11 8344kN >>>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ng6 24.Rd4 Qb5 25.Nh4 Nxh4 26.Rxh4 Qxe5 27.Rb4 Bd5 28.Nc3 a5 >>>>>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:06 46907kN >>>>>>22.h3 Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc2 26.h4 Rd8 27.Nc3 Nh3+ 28.Kg2 >>>>>>Nxf2 >>>>>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:10 49142kN >>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Rab8 26.Rxc8+ >>>>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:14 52426kN >>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:24 58639kN >>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:36 105349kN >>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 Be4 >>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:05:12 203618kN >>>>>> >>>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>>> >>>>>>I tried to give it the same position at tournament condition and here is the >>>>>>analysis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>What do you mean by tournament condition? >>>> >>>>I clicked on games,level,long game and chose 2 hours/40 moves. >>>> >>>>I later clicked on game and move now so junior started to calculate. >>>> >>>>Junior had all the game so it practically had 2 hours for less than 40 moves but >>>>I could reproduce the same result in 1 hour/40 moves. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>>> >>>>>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 638kN >>>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 >>>>>> = (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:12 9070kN >>>>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Rac1 Qxc1 27.Rxc1 Rxd6 >>>>>>28.exd6 >>>>>> = (-0.03) Depth: 12 00:00:14 10323kN >>>>>>22.Nc3 Qxb2 23.Ne4 Nf4 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Rab1 Qe2 26.Rxb7 Qxe4 27.Qe7 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 >>>>>>Qc4+ 29.Ke1 Qc3+ 30.Kf1 >>>>>> = (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:21 14864kN >>>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>>>>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:52 35689kN >>>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:01:02 42938kN >>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:01:39 67309kN >>>>>> >>>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Here is the analysis of Junior after 22.Nc3 >>>>>> >>>>>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/1q6/2NQ1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>>> >>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Rxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 >>>>>> ³ (-0.42) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qxc3 >>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>>>>22...Nf4 23.Qh7 Nxg2 24.Ra4 Qxb2 25.Rb1 Qxc3 26.Qh8+ Ke7 27.Rxb7+ >>>>>> ³ (-0.29) Depth: 6 00:00:00 14kN >>>>>>22...Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc4 26.d7 Ke7 >>>>>> ² (0.36) Depth: 9 00:00:00 172kN >>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ >>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 184kN >>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 a5 26.Qd7 Rc7 27.Ra3 Qe1+ 28.Rxe1 Rxd7 >>>>>> ³ (-0.36) Depth: 12 00:00:03 1590kN >>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>>>>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 15 00:00:29 17321kN >>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Qa3 Qxa3 27.Rxa3 a5 28.f4 a4 >>>>>>29.Kf2 Be4 >>>>>> ³ (-0.59) Depth: 17 00:02:35 89481kN >>>>>> >>>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>>> >>>>>>I wonder if the reason for Nc3 was some learning from hash tables,different size >>>>>>of hash tables, autoplayer bug or another reason(Junior used 848 seconds to >>>>>>caluclate the move Nc3 based on the pgn) >>>>>> >>>>>>Uri >>>>> >>>>>1) Note that the first move calculated by Junior in this game (no. 5) is move >>>>>#17. Both programs played from the book up to then. So at move #22 there is some >>>>>moves hash inside. >>>>>2) I used 128MB hash, which hash size did you try? >>>> >>>>64 Mbytes >>>> >>>>>3) Not Junior took 848 seconds, but Tiger took 848 sec for 21...Kf8. Sure, >>>>>Junior moved immediately after this 848sec but Juniors move #21 was also >>>>>immediately so I'd say all this hash/permanent brain may cause the difference. >>>> >>>>I understand it but Junior calculated for 848 seconds when it was tiger's move >>>>so my statement that Junior used 848 seconds is correct. >>>> >>>>I agree that more hash and permanent brain can cause difference but they are >>>>supposed to be productive and not counter productive. >>>> >>>>Junior has no problem to avoid Nc3 at depth 14. >>>> >>>>I decided to try it at game condition and was surprised to find that Junior can >>>>play it at depth 17 with my PIII800. >>>> >>>>I gave it to play 21.Rfd1 at 40 moves/1 hour and let it ponder for a long time. >>>> >>>>This is the surprising result: >>>> >>>>Junior never considered Nc3 as a good move but suddenly at depth 17 found this >>>>move. >>>> >>>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>>r1r5/pb2kpp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>> >>>>22.b3 Rd8 >>>> = (0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>22.h3 Rd8 >>>> = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>22.Nd4 Rd8 >>>> = (0.13) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>22.Qh7 Rd8 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 >>>> = (0.00) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 9 00:00:00 3kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 12 00:00:00 30kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:02 830kN >>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:00:47 30491kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:04:33 178849kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:06:21 245439kN >>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Qxf3 26.Rd7 Qg4+ 27.Kf1 Qh3+ 28.Ke2 >>>>Qg4+ >>>> = (0.00) Depth: 17 00:08:00 305132kN >>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 18 00:15:15 574325kN >>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Nd4 Kf8 26.g4 >>>> = (-0.18) Depth: 18 00:16:27 618889kN >>>> >>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>> >>>> >>>>I guess that similiar analysis convinced Junior in your game except the fact >>>>that tiger did not use enough time to let Junior to get into depth 18. >>> >>>It is still rather odd. >>> >>>Here is what I get TB 945 w/128 mb hash >>>New position >>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>1.Qh7 Nf4 2.Rd7 Ng6 3.Rd4 Qb5 4.Nh4 Nxh4 5.Rxh4 Qxe5 6.Rb4 Bd5 7.Nc3 a5 >>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:00 46973kN >>>1.h3 Nf4 2.Qd6+ Qxd6 3.exd6 Bxf3 4.gxf3 Rc2 5.h4 Rd8 6.Nc3 Nh3+ 7.Kg2 Nxf2 >>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:03 49207kN >>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Rab8 5.Rxc8+ >>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:08 52495kN >>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:17 58710kN >>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 >>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:23 105308kN >>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 Be4 >>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:04:43 201433kN >>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Nd4 Kf8 5.Rdc1 Ke7 >>> = (-0.12) Depth: 18 00:11:44 502036kN >>> >>>Sarah. >> >> >>This is not odd, look at Uri's post, you have a similar result. > >Maybe similar but I never see Nc3. > >Sarah. Uri did neither in analysis mode, see above.
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