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Subject: Re: Strange position - who can reach it with minimum moves?

Author: Christoph Fieberg

Date: 14:55:48 07/11/01

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On July 11, 2001 at 17:36:36, leonid wrote:

>On July 11, 2001 at 15:20:17, Heiner Marxen wrote:
>
>>On July 11, 2001 at 14:33:12, Christoph Fieberg wrote:
>>
>>>On July 11, 2001 at 12:22:15, Heiner Marxen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 11, 2001 at 11:45:17, Christoph Fieberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I composed the following position:
>>>>>[D]r2qk2r/8/8/qqqqqqqq/QQQQQQQQ/8/8/R2QK2R b KQkq - 0 80
>>>>>
>>>>>Who can construct a game to reach it?
>>>>>
>>>>>In my first attempt I needed 161 moves (last move was 81.Ke1).
>>>
>>>161 moves was meant as half-moves! (as you could see from the notion 81.Ke1)
>>>Sorry, that I did not express excatly.
>>
>>I see!  Sorry, could have guessed that myself.
>>To avoid this sort of confusion, in the context of computer chess half-moves
>>are often called "plies".
>>
>>>>
>>>>If the white K has moved, its castling rights KQ should be removed!
>>>>
>>>
>>>In my game both kings had moved! Therefore no castling possible any more.
>>
>>Aha.  In that case the same mate in 8 does follow, but the solution time
>>of Chest reduces from 330.54 secs to 296.10 secs.  I didn't expect the
>>difference to be that large... Chest still can surprise its author :-)
>
>
>Hi! I found this "strange" position to be very much like my "normal" one. When
>you indicated that it contain mate in 8, I thought that, probably, it is more
>that coincidence.
>
>LLchess mate solver. 600Mhz. No hash. Castling regarded as existing.
>
>First mate for white side found for 8 moves deep in 35 seconds.
>
>Obviosly mate for black side in 8 moves also existe and was found.
>
>Cheers,
>Leonid.

Hi Leonid,
your position indeed inspired me to construct the above one. The main difference
is that the position above is possible from a real game (within 69 moves).

Did you see my comment: http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?179231 ?

What about my challenge? Can you reach the position with less than 69 moves?

Best regards,
Christoph

>
>
>
>
>>>>>Who needs less moves?
>>>>
>>>>IIRC, Popeye can construct proof games.  But more than 300 plies?
>>>
>>>As explained only 161 plies are necessary! Can Popeye cope with it?
>>
>>I have no idea, since I did not really use that feature.
>>I have studied its source code for a similar job, i.e. help mates,
>>which uses basically the same technique.  The program calculates a good
>>minimum distance between source and destination position and uses this
>>to prune early.
>>
>>Whether this method is good enough for this problem... I just don't know.
>>You could try it yourself: Popeye is sort of free (GNU copyleft IIRC).
>>
>>Regards,
>>Heiner
>>
>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Christoph
>>>
>>>
>>>>I cannot imagine any program to proove the shortest proof game for such
>>>>a position... but then, what do I know?
>>>>
>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>Christoph
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Heiner



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