Author: Chessfun
Date: 17:18:10 07/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 11, 2001 at 19:00:22, Brian Kostick wrote: >On July 11, 2001 at 07:57:19, Chessfun wrote: > >>On July 11, 2001 at 07:54:14, Harald Faber wrote: >> >>>On July 11, 2001 at 07:50:11, Chessfun wrote: >>> >>>>On July 11, 2001 at 07:42:49, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 11, 2001 at 06:26:29, Harald Faber wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 11, 2001 at 05:52:37, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This position is from haraled faver's games. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ähm, I don't care much if my name is not written correctly, but this spelling is >>>>>>totally wrong. :-) >>>>>>It is Harald Faber, easy, isn't it? ;-) >>>>> >>>>>yes >>>>> >>>>>I will remember in the future not to put e between the 'l' and the 'd'. >>>>> >>>>>I also found that the bug is in Junior and not in the autoplayer(see the end of >>>>>the post for proof. >>>>>> >>>>>>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>>>>>[D]r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Junior played here 22.Nc3 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I gave my Junior7 to anlayze the same position and it did not like Nc3 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>What hardware do you use? >>>>> >>>>>PIII800. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 694kN >>>>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 Ke7 25.b3 Nh3+ 26.gxh3 Bxf3 27.Rd6 Kf8 >>>>>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 12 00:00:11 8344kN >>>>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ng6 24.Rd4 Qb5 25.Nh4 Nxh4 26.Rxh4 Qxe5 27.Rb4 Bd5 28.Nc3 a5 >>>>>>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:06 46907kN >>>>>>>22.h3 Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc2 26.h4 Rd8 27.Nc3 Nh3+ 28.Kg2 >>>>>>>Nxf2 >>>>>>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:10 49142kN >>>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Rab8 26.Rxc8+ >>>>>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:14 52426kN >>>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:24 58639kN >>>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:36 105349kN >>>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 Be4 >>>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:05:12 203618kN >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I tried to give it the same position at tournament condition and here is the >>>>>>>analysis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>What do you mean by tournament condition? >>>>> >>>>>I clicked on games,level,long game and chose 2 hours/40 moves. >>>>> >>>>>I later clicked on game and move now so junior started to calculate. >>>>> >>>>>Junior had all the game so it practically had 2 hours for less than 40 moves but >>>>>I could reproduce the same result in 1 hour/40 moves. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>>>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> = (-0.02) Depth: 9 00:00:01 638kN >>>>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 23.Rd7 Ke8 24.Rdd1 >>>>>>> = (0.00) Depth: 12 00:00:12 9070kN >>>>>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Rac1 Qxc1 27.Rxc1 Rxd6 >>>>>>>28.exd6 >>>>>>> = (-0.03) Depth: 12 00:00:14 10323kN >>>>>>>22.Nc3 Qxb2 23.Ne4 Nf4 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Rab1 Qe2 26.Rxb7 Qxe4 27.Qe7 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 >>>>>>>Qc4+ 29.Ke1 Qc3+ 30.Kf1 >>>>>>> = (0.00) Depth: 14 00:00:21 14864kN >>>>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>>>>>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:52 35689kN >>>>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:01:02 42938kN >>>>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:01:39 67309kN >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Here is the analysis of Junior after 22.Nc3 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Junior 7,K - ChessTiger 14,K >>>>>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/1q6/2NQ1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Rxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 >>>>>>> ³ (-0.42) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qxc3 >>>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>>>>>22...Nf4 23.Qh7 Nxg2 24.Ra4 Qxb2 25.Rb1 Qxc3 26.Qh8+ Ke7 27.Rxb7+ >>>>>>> ³ (-0.29) Depth: 6 00:00:00 14kN >>>>>>>22...Nf4 23.Qd6+ Qxd6 24.exd6 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Rc4 26.d7 Ke7 >>>>>>> ² (0.36) Depth: 9 00:00:00 172kN >>>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ >>>>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 184kN >>>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 a5 26.Qd7 Rc7 27.Ra3 Qe1+ 28.Rxe1 Rxd7 >>>>>>> ³ (-0.36) Depth: 12 00:00:03 1590kN >>>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>>>>>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 15 00:00:29 17321kN >>>>>>>22...Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qd6+ Kg8 25.Nd4 Rd8 26.Qa3 Qxa3 27.Rxa3 a5 28.f4 a4 >>>>>>>29.Kf2 Be4 >>>>>>> ³ (-0.59) Depth: 17 00:02:35 89481kN >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I wonder if the reason for Nc3 was some learning from hash tables,different size >>>>>>>of hash tables, autoplayer bug or another reason(Junior used 848 seconds to >>>>>>>caluclate the move Nc3 based on the pgn) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>>1) Note that the first move calculated by Junior in this game (no. 5) is move >>>>>>#17. Both programs played from the book up to then. So at move #22 there is some >>>>>>moves hash inside. >>>>>>2) I used 128MB hash, which hash size did you try? >>>>> >>>>>64 Mbytes >>>>> >>>>>>3) Not Junior took 848 seconds, but Tiger took 848 sec for 21...Kf8. Sure, >>>>>>Junior moved immediately after this 848sec but Juniors move #21 was also >>>>>>immediately so I'd say all this hash/permanent brain may cause the difference. >>>>> >>>>>I understand it but Junior calculated for 848 seconds when it was tiger's move >>>>>so my statement that Junior used 848 seconds is correct. >>>>> >>>>>I agree that more hash and permanent brain can cause difference but they are >>>>>supposed to be productive and not counter productive. >>>>> >>>>>Junior has no problem to avoid Nc3 at depth 14. >>>>> >>>>>I decided to try it at game condition and was surprised to find that Junior can >>>>>play it at depth 17 with my PIII800. >>>>> >>>>>I gave it to play 21.Rfd1 at 40 moves/1 hour and let it ponder for a long time. >>>>> >>>>>This is the surprising result: >>>>> >>>>>Junior never considered Nc3 as a good move but suddenly at depth 17 found this >>>>>move. >>>>> >>>>>Junior 7 - Blass,U >>>>>r1r5/pb2kpp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1 >>>>> >>>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>> >>>>>22.b3 Rd8 >>>>> = (0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>>22.h3 Rd8 >>>>> = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>>22.Nd4 Rd8 >>>>> = (0.13) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>>22.Qh7 Rd8 >>>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>>22.Qh7 Nf4 >>>>> = (0.00) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >>>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN >>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >>>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 9 00:00:00 3kN >>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 >>>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 12 00:00:00 30kN >>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Ne7 24.Nd4 Ng6 25.Re3 Rab8 26.Nc3 >>>>> = (-0.14) Depth: 14 00:00:02 830kN >>>>>22.Qa3 Qxa3 23.Rxa3 Nf4 24.Ne1 Ne2+ 25.Kh1 Rab8 26.Nc3 Nxc3 27.bxc3 a5 >>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 16 00:00:47 30491kN >>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd2 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Rdc1 Nc3 26.Nd4 >>>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:04:33 178849kN >>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 >>>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:06:21 245439kN >>>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 Qxf3 26.Rd7 Qg4+ 27.Kf1 Qh3+ 28.Ke2 >>>>>Qg4+ >>>>> = (0.00) Depth: 17 00:08:00 305132kN >>>>>22.Nc3 Nxc3 23.bxc3 Qxc3 24.Qh7 Bxf3 25.gxf3 a5 26.f4 Qf3 27.Rd3 Qe2 28.Rd7 >>>>> ³ (-0.43) Depth: 18 00:15:15 574325kN >>>>>22.b3 Kg8 23.Qd4 a5 24.Qxb4 axb4 25.Nd4 Kf8 26.g4 >>>>> = (-0.18) Depth: 18 00:16:27 618889kN >>>>> >>>>>(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.07.2001) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I guess that similiar analysis convinced Junior in your game except the fact >>>>>that tiger did not use enough time to let Junior to get into depth 18. >>>> >>>>It is still rather odd. >>>> >>>>Here is what I get TB 945 w/128 mb hash >>>>New position >>>>r1r2k2/pb3pp1/4p2p/3nP3/Nq6/3Q1N2/1P3PPP/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>>1.Qh7 Nf4 2.Rd7 Ng6 3.Rd4 Qb5 4.Nh4 Nxh4 5.Rxh4 Qxe5 6.Rb4 Bd5 7.Nc3 a5 >>>> = (-0.25) Depth: 14 00:01:00 46973kN >>>>1.h3 Nf4 2.Qd6+ Qxd6 3.exd6 Bxf3 4.gxf3 Rc2 5.h4 Rd8 6.Nc3 Nh3+ 7.Kg2 Nxf2 >>>> = (-0.24) Depth: 14 00:01:03 49207kN >>>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Rab8 5.Rxc8+ >>>> = (-0.05) Depth: 14 00:01:08 52495kN >>>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 >>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:01:17 58710kN >>>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 >>>> = (-0.16) Depth: 16 00:02:23 105308kN >>>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Rdc1 Nc3 5.Nd4 Be4 >>>> = (-0.17) Depth: 17 00:04:43 201433kN >>>>1.b3 Kg8 2.Qd4 a5 3.Qxb4 axb4 4.Nd4 Kf8 5.Rdc1 Ke7 >>>> = (-0.12) Depth: 18 00:11:44 502036kN >>>> >>>>Sarah. >>> >>> >>>This is not odd, look at Uri's post, you have a similar result. >> >>Maybe similar but I never see Nc3. >> >>Sarah. > >Sarah and all good readers, > > I think this might be similar to: > >http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?178904 > > But for sure I am but quessing! Still when I need best move from engine I tend >to set Game/Levels/Fixed Time... to 99999 seconds and then press go button for >the engine to start thinking. I tend to think that Infinite Analysis (Alt + >F2) does not bring out the best of engines. So much so that I consider it a bug, >but maybe I am not understanding the underling code? > > I have noted similar discrepancies with Junior 6 and Hiarcs 7.32. This was >back awhile when some of the forum was doing some 2 hour test suite. Sorry I >don't recall the test name. > > If you feel I am off track or not on topic I hope you will excuse this post. > >Regards, Brian Kostick Not at all off track nor topic. Actually I do it both ways, sometimes one sometimes another. In this case it was infinite analysis, it could well be a different result using fixed time. I'll give it a whirl later. Sarah.
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