Author: odell hall
Date: 22:28:54 07/12/01
Go up one level in this thread
On July 13, 2001 at 00:20:46, Dann Corbit wrote: >On July 12, 2001 at 23:41:08, odell hall wrote: > >>On July 12, 2001 at 23:26:21, Dann Corbit wrote: >> >>>On July 12, 2001 at 22:33:51, odell hall wrote: >>> >>>>Who says computers have the positional understanding of a 2100??? In the game >>>>Junior 7 finds the Novelty played by Anand 11...Be7!! at about 1 min at depth >>>>15 on my Thunderbird 1000, previous moves which has been played in this position >>>>are 11...nf6, bb7, h6. I tested a few other programs, (fritz, gambit tiger) >>>>they were unable to find the move. I am not 100% sure it is the best, but if >>>>Anand plays it, there has to definitely be something to it. Listening to the >>>>commentary I notice no one expected this move. How stupid can computers be to >>>>find a purely positional move that annand plays??? >>>> >>>> >>>>Morozevich,A - Anand,V >>>[D]r1b1k2r/2qp1ppp/p3pn2/1p2n3/1b1BP3/1NN2P2/PPPQ2PP/2KR1B1R b kq - 0 1 >>>> >>>>Analysis by Junior 7: >>>> >>>>11...h5 12.Qg5 >>>> ² (0.36) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>11...Nc6 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Qh6 Bxc3 >>>> = (0.21) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>>11...Nc6 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Qh6 Bxc3 >>>> = (0.21) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>>11...Nc6 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Qh6 Bxc3 >>>> = (0.21) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN >>>>11...Nc6 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Qh6 Bxc3 14.bxc3 Bb7 >>>> ± (0.74) Depth: 9 00:00:00 56kN >>>>11...h6 12.a3 Be7 13.f4 Nc4 14.Qf2 Bb7 >>>> = (0.17) Depth: 9 00:00:00 88kN >>>>11...h6 12.a3 Bd6 13.Be3 Be7 14.Bf4 b4 15.axb4 Bxb4 16.Be2 >>>> = (0.16) Depth: 12 00:00:01 698kN >>>>11...0-0 12.a3 Bd6 13.Be3 Be7 14.Bf4 b4 15.axb4 Bxb4 16.Be2 Bxc3 >>>> = (0.08) Depth: 12 00:00:04 2991kN >>>>11...0-0 12.a3 Bd6 13.Bxb5 Bb7 14.Bf2 Bxa3 15.bxa3 Rfc8 16.Bc5 axb5 17.Nxb5 Qb8 >>>> ² (0.39) Depth: 15 00:00:17 12443kN >>>>11...h6 12.a3 Bd6 13.Bb6 Qxb6 14.Qxd6 Qxd6 15.Rxd6 Ke7 16.Rd1 Nc6 17.Be2 >>>> = (0.16) Depth: 15 00:00:24 17059kN >>>>11...Be7 12.Qf2 b4 13.Na4 d6 14.Nb6 Rb8 15.Nxc8 Qxc8 16.Be3 d5 >>>> = (0.02) Depth: 15 00:01:05 46644kN >>> >>>Look at the score, it is 0.02. Not exactly a ringing endorsement... >>> >>>>(hall, denver 12.07.2001) >>> >>>Here's crafty's take: >>>EPD Kit revision date: 1996.04.21 >>>unable to open book file [e:\crafty\release/books.bin]. >>>hash table memory = 192M bytes. >>>pawn hash table memory = 80M bytes. >>>EGTB cache memory = 32M bytes. >>>draw score set to 0.00 pawns. >>>choose from book moves randomly (using weights.) >>>choose from 5 best moves. >>>book learning enabled >>>result learning enabled >>>position learning enabled >>>threshold set to 9 pawns. >>>5 piece tablebase files found >>>19045kb of RAM used for TB indices and decompression tables >>> >>>Crafty v18.10 >>> >>>White(1): st 999 >>>search time set to 999.00. >>>White(1): setboard r1b1k2r/2qp1ppp/p3pn2/1p2n3/1b1BP3/1NN2P2/PPPQ2PP/2KR1B1R b >>>kq - 0 1 >>>Black(1): >>> puzzling over a move to ponder. >>> clearing hash tables >>> nss depth time score variation (1) >>>Black(1): O-O [pondering] >>> clearing hash tables >>> time surplus 0.00 time limit 16:39 (16:39) >>> nss depth time score variation (1) >>>go >>>Black(1): go >>> clearing hash tables >>> time surplus 0.00 time limit 16:39 (16:39) >>> nss depth time score variation (1) >>> 6-> 0.37 0.61 1. ... O-O 2. a3 Be7 3. Qg5 Nc4 4. >>> Kb1 >>> 7 0.59 0.62 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 d6 3. a3 h6 4. Qe3 >>> Bxc3 5. Qxc3 >>> 7-> 0.92 0.62 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 d6 3. a3 h6 4. Qe3 >>> Bxc3 5. Qxc3 >>> 8 1.41 0.63 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 b4 4. >>> Na4 Bb7 5. Nac5 >>> 8-> 2.50 0.63 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 b4 4. >>> Na4 Bb7 5. Nac5 >>> 9 3.49 0.66 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 h6 4. >>> Qe3 Bb7 5. f4 Nfg4 >>> 9-> 5.42 0.66 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 h6 4. >>> Qe3 Bb7 5. f4 Nfg4 >>> 10 9.56 0.71 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 d6 3. a3 Bxc3 4. >>> Bxc3 h6 5. Qf4 Bb7 6. Ba5 Qc6 >>> 10 44.82 0.67 1. ... Ng6 2. Qe3 O-O 3. e5 Nh5 4. >>> a3 Be7 5. Qe4 Bg5+ 6. Kb1 Bb7 >>> 10-> 50.94 0.67 1. ... Ng6 2. Qe3 O-O 3. e5 Nh5 4. >>> a3 Be7 5. Qe4 Bg5+ 6. Kb1 Bb7 >>> 11 1:10 0.81 1. ... Ng6 2. Qe3 Bb7 3. a3 Bd6 4. >>> g3 Be5 5. Bxe5 Nxe5 6. f4 Nc4 7. Qd4 >>> 11 2:01 0.73 1. ... Be7 2. Qf2 Ng6 3. Bb6 Qe5 4. >>> g3 b4 5. Bd4 Qb8 6. Na4 Qc7 >>> 11 2:11 0.67 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 b4 4. >>> Na4 h6 5. Qe3 Re8 6. f4 Nfg4 >>> 11-> 2:21 0.67 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 b4 4. >>> Na4 h6 5. Qe3 Re8 6. f4 Nfg4 >>> 12 2:42 0.71 1. ... O-O 2. Qg5 Bd6 3. Kb1 h6 4. >>> Qe3 Nc4 5. Qf2 e5 6. Bxc4 exd4 7. Bd5 >>> 12 4:31 0.66 1. ... Be7 2. f4 Nc4 3. Bxc4 bxc4 4. >>> Na1 O-O 5. Be5 Qc5 6. Bd6 Bxd6 7. Qxd6 >>> Qe3+ 8. Qd2 Ng4 >>> 12-> 5:49 0.66 1. ... Be7 2. f4 Nc4 3. Bxc4 bxc4 4. >>> Na1 O-O 5. Be5 Qc5 6. Bd6 Bxd6 7. Qxd6 >>> Qe3+ 8. Qd2 Ng4 >>> 13 6:00 1/45* 1. ... Be7 >>> >>>Do the scores or trajectories show that either of these programs has GM >>>positional understanding? >> >> >> >> >> Actually the score for Junior 7 is pretty good, considering that Black's goal >>in the opening is to equalize, to achieve this at only move 11.. is not bad, >>obviously junior thinks be7 is the only equalizing move. I would be interested >>to know why it chooses this particular move, i guess only amir can speak to this >>fact however, or maybe we can ask Anand!! it obviously a very deep positional >>ideal. > >We don't have to ask Amir anything. The program *told* us the reason why it >chose the move: >Be7 12.Qf2 b4 13.Na4 d6 14.Nb6 Rb8 15.Nxc8 Qxc8 16.Be3 d5 >[D]1rq1k2r/4bppp/p3pn2/3pn3/1p2P3/1N2BP2/PPP2QPP/2KR1B1R w k - > >As you can see, the thinking was completely different from what actually went >on. > >Crafty also had a very different line of reasoning. > >Here is the actual game: >[Event "Sparkassen Cat XXI"] >[Site "Dortmund GER"] >[Date "2001.07.12"] >[Round "1"] >[White "Morozevich,A"] >[Black "Anand,V"] >[Result "1/2-1/2"] >[WhiteElo "2749"] >[BlackElo "2794"] >[EventDate "2001.07.12"] >[ECO "B48"] > >1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 >8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 10. Nb3 b5 11. Bd4 Be7 12. Kb1 d6 13. Qf2 Rb8 14. g4 >h6 15. h4 Nc4 16. Bxc4 bxc4 17. Nd2 e5 18. Ba7 Rb7 19. g5 Nh5 20. Nd5 Qc6 >21. Nf1 Be6 22. Be3 Bxd5 23. exd5 Qb5 24. c3 Nf4 25. Bxf4 exf4 26. Rg1 O-O >27. Rg2 Rfb8 28. Rd2 g6 29. Qd4 hxg5 30. Nh2 gxh4 31. Ng4 Bg5 32. Nf6+ Bxf6 >33. Qxf6 Qb6 34. Rde2 Qd8 35. Qxf4 Re7 36. Qxh4 Rxe2 37. Qxd8+ Rxd8 38. >Rxe2 Rc8 >1/2-1/2 > >Now, don't get me wrong. Programs are not positional dummies -- some of them >make some pretty smart moves from time to time, even positionally. But not >consistently and deeply like a GM. Look at the NOLOT and LCT II problems that >actually are positional and see how long your computer will ponder to solve >them. Well i don't think i am qualified to say whatever or not the Computers analysis was correct or the Grandmasters, i will have to wait until tommorow and look at kasparov.com and see what the Expert analysis is, then we will see how accurate the computer was, perhaps the Experts will say Morro went wrong and should have followed the computer line. The problem with people making critiqueS of the computers play, is that most of us are not qualified to make an accurate assessment. I remember on several occasions people have stated that the Computer move was stupid, or Odd, only to have a supergrandmaster comment that it was the only move in the position!!. Two games come to Mind. Karpov vs Deep thought and Kasparov vs Deepblue.
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