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Subject: Re: OK, we can make a test ...

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 18:26:59 07/30/01

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On July 30, 2001 at 10:44:22, Frank Quisinsky wrote:

>On July 30, 2001 at 09:31:28, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On July 29, 2001 at 10:50:47, Frank Quisinsky wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Hi Bob,
>>>
>>>the same discuss then for 2 years here :-)
>>>
>>>I, the ex non ponderer, will say the following:
>>>
>>>01.
>>>You have right if you say that with ponder = off engines have time manangment
>>>problems, not all and not in all games but it's an important point. I know that
>>>this is for statistics not sooo important (ELO statistic).
>>>
>>>02.
>>>Match without ponder on single system with Athlon 1Ghz:
>>>Engine A = 1Ghz
>>>Engine B = 1Ghz
>>>
>>>Match with ponder on a single system with Athlon 1Ghz:
>>>Engine A = ~ 497-500Mhz
>>>Engine B = ~ 497-500Mhz
>>>
>>>Now we have 25-40% ponder hits if the engines play on the same level (after my
>>>experiments).
>>>
>>>Result:
>>>500Mhz + 25-40% ponder hits = ~700MHz.
>>>
>>>With ponder = on, the matches are running with 700Mhz on 1Ghz Athlon!
>>>With ponder = off, the matches are running with 1Ghz on 1Ghz Athlon!
>>>
>>>I believe better is to play with ponder = off on single system. OK, the time
>>>managment is a good point so say please with ponder but 300 MHz is a better
>>>point to say please without ponder.
>>>
>>>03.
>>>4-piece and 5-piece tablebases and engine-engine matches on a Dual system ...
>>>
>>>This is not very clear.
>>>We have engines witch used tablebases very aggressive or not very aggressive.
>>>
>>>Example:
>>>Gromit - Patzer with 5-pieces ...
>>>
>>>Gromit played move 50 in 2:45 with ponder = on and 5-pieces.
>>>Only 20-30% processor time in this game if Gromit used 5-pieces.
>>>Patzer played move 50 in 1.25 with ponder = on and 5-pieces.
>>>
>>>Now the same positions with 4-pieces ...
>>>
>>>Gromit play move 50 in 1.58! with ponder = on and *4-pieces*.
>>>Patzer played move 50 in 1.13 with ponder = on and *4-pieces*.
>>>
>>>Without 4-piece tablesbases are the differents not very important.
>>>
>>>In my opinion it is better to play eng-eng matches with ponder on a dual system
>>>with 4-piece tablebases.
>>>
>>>Best
>>>Frank
>>
>>
>>Your math is fine.
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>good, for two years you say my math is bad, but in this case you have right (I
>mean for two years) :-))
>
>But your reasoning is wrong.  Which would you rather do:
>
>>(1) play a match between two programs, using their strongest settings, and using
>>two 700mhz processors;
>
>>(2) play a match between two programs, using weaker settings on at least one, if
>>not both, using two 1ghz processors?
>>
>>
>>I vote for (1) because of using the strongest settings.  You are voting for (2)
>>to avoid wasting compute cycles.  I think (1) is more important...
>
>Yes, this is a good idea and a nice experiment.
>I have an Dual Pentium III 733 MHz and an Dual Pentium III 1GHz.
>
>But it is not 100%ig clear which test exactly!
>
>What do you think about the following match idea:
>Only with one CPUs to point 1-4.
>
>01.
>Crafty 18.10 on Dual Pentium III 733Mhz with ponder against Yace 0.99.50 on Dual
>Pentium III 1.05GHz (the machine is running with FSB = 140) without ponder, 40
>moves in 40 minutes, 50 games.
>
>02.
>Yace 0.99.50 on Dual Pentium III 733Mhz with ponder against Crafty 18.10 on Dual
>Pentium III 1.05Ghz without ponder, 40 moves in 40 minutes, 50 games.
>
>03.
>The same match but Crafty 18.10 without ponder (1.05Ghz) and Yace 0.99.50
>(1.05Ghz) without ponder, 50 games.
>
>04.
>After this matches, a new match Crafty 18.10 (1.05Ghz) with ponder - Yace
>0.99.50 (1.05 Ghz) with ponder, 50 games.
>
>In 2-3 months, after my CCE tourney I can make a test.
>If you have a better idea please write.
>
>I think 128 MB for hashtables, and 4pieces tablebases is good enough for the
>experiment. Tablebases with 4Mb cache. No lean options in configuration files.
>
>Best
>Frank


I don't think the experiment is valid...  Because you don't know how much
crafty and yace are affected by ponder=off.  It is possible that both do a bit
worse on time management.  So that the matches match pretty well in score.  But
does that mean ponder=off is then ok?  Only for those two programs.  You have to
repeat this for _every_ pair of engines you want to test like that...



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