Author: Uri Blass
Date: 22:32:45 08/01/01
Go up one level in this thread
On August 02, 2001 at 00:46:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 01, 2001 at 17:45:56, Bruce Moreland wrote: > >>On July 31, 2001 at 22:37:13, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On July 31, 2001 at 18:36:53, Otello Gnaramori wrote: >>> >>>><snip> >>>>Franz Morsch saying the main difference between this version of Fritz compared >>>>to its predecessors did not lie so much in greater chess knowledge but more due >>>>to the machines newfound ability to deal with anti-computer chess strategy, and >>>>to learn from its mistakes. He also said that he believed that this incarnation >>>>of Fritz is every bit as strong as the Deep Blue II that defeated Kasparov and >>>>has far greater "chess knowledge". >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>Good to say that...:) >>>> >>>>Regards. >>> >>> >>>If that is a direct quote from Frans, my respect for him just took a _huge_ >>>nose-dive. The quote is simply nonsense. >> >>Deep Blue was a machine that the world saw play 12 games almost 5 years ago. >>None of those games were against another computer. After those 12 games, it >>disappeared forever. >> >>I think that it would be a mistake to found a religion based upon this. The >>"Deep Blue was awesome and we can never hope to surpass" it attitude does not >>further computer chess, even a little. > > >Deep Thought beat the living hell out of every computer chess program for a >period of 10 years. It lost one game to Fritz in 1995. DB2 was 100 times >faster, with a better evaluation. I do not know if DB had better evaluation than Deep thought because it may have bugs. It was not tested in public games. To claim that a program that can only >search 2M nodes per second is as good or better is nothing but pure nonsense, >no matter how it gets justified. > > > >> >>If they want to disappear, fine, let's all forget them and move on. >> >>If Frans wants to say something like this, it's not much different than >>assigning all sorts of god-like capabilities to the machine. > > >It is a _lot_ different... because Frans knows better, as do I and many >others. I doubt he would have played them a best 2-of-3 in 1995. He took >the win and ran. No They took the loss and ran. Fritz was commercial so they could play a 10 game public match against Fritz3 after their loss and Frans could do nothing against it. Because he _knew_ he could not repeat such a lucky break >a second time... nor could any other program either. > >I only have to think about the 200M nodes per second to realize how good it >was, even had I not _seen_ it play games. Saying that 200M nodes is better than 2M nodes without seeing games is not convincing. 200M nodes can be even worse than 2M nodes because of bugs. To think today's programs are even >close is just something I can't believe anyone would take seriously. At best >it is marketing hyperbole. At worst it is dishonest. Either end of the thing >is _bad_. > > > > >> >>If they want the reputation, let's see them rejoin the community and play a >>bunch of games. > > >You can only do what the people in charge allow. They _did_ compete from 1987 >until the last ACM event that was held. They did quite well during that span >of time, proving that they were simply in a class by themselves. In the last >ACM event, they had to forfeit a game due to a monster power failure at the >Watson center, yet they _still_ won the tournament outright with no tie-break >system needed. > > > >> >>If they don't want to do that, it's hard to provide substantitive >>counter-argument against the "Deep Blue Sucks" people, and I don't see why any >>of us should try. >> >>Bob, they left and they aren't coming back. They didn't make much of a real >>legend before they left. Posthumous attempts to create a legend for them >>shouldn't be our business. >> > > >Didn't make a legend? Were you present in 1987, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, >etc? I was present and saw what they did to everybody that showed up. Over >and over. It is history. They were the best at their time. It does not convince me that they are the best today. Uri
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